Justice, Joy, & “Courageous Commitment Over Comfort” with Jillian “Mama J” Love, Founder of Mama J Love Consulting LLC

00:01.57

kitedart

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's session of the Now & Center podcast. I'm so excited for the conversation I get to have today and that you all get to hear today. I am with someone who we've only talked one other time but I feel ah just a kind of heart connection deep connection. I feel very seen and understood in my conversations with this person. So I'm super excited, not to mention the topics that I know we'll be talking about will be very juicy, so with that said, I'd like to welcome Jillian Mama J Love. They are the founder of Mama J Love Consulting. Welcome to the show, Mama J!

00:44.37

Jillian Mama J Love

Thank you. I'm so delighted to be here and be in conversation.

00:52.32

kitedart

Yeah, me too. Um, let's just kind of get to the nitty gritty. It's not the nitty gritty but like just kind of kick it off with the business right? and getting a little bit of an introduction to your consulting business, to the work that you're doing, and really that difference that you want to make in the world.

01:13.77

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah, I'm excited to talk about it. So um, mama j Love consulting was born out of me becoming a Mama um, and really recognizing that um I wanted to create a life I wanted. Um, in a way that in some ways had been modeled for me I'm a second -generation entrepreneur. Um, but I didn't want to do that business per se right. I wanted to do the work that was in line with my values and passion and that over the years has been. Data and justice. So I've woven those 2 threads for a over two decade career which is kind of wild to say at this point and also I've lived it and learned a lot in that and so the work I do for my clients is co-designing justice and joy. Um, by dismantling business as usual for any leader across any sector. My roots are in education- lifelong educator, lifelong learner and in calling my toolkit of JEDI (justice, equity, diversity, and inclusion) tools I've really come to realize and see this work is needed for every leader and across sectors. So that's really the call that I'm answering. Um.

02:44.82

Jillian Mama J Love

To do that work with folks, to really not be the expert coming in to like solve and fix, but how can I bring my specific tools to the table to help all stakeholders be heard.

03:00.28

kitedart

I Love that Not that beautiful I Love how as you're describing that and talking about that it feels I feel like I have so many conversations with people that are like this. We are trying to create this different worlds and we're still stuck in this white supremacist Patriarchal Capitalist Society right? like our systems and structures are rooted in oppression and we're trying to live into this world of liberation and. Um, it's like how do you?? How do we create this different world and I think part of it is like we need to as much as we can show up in a transformed way in a transformed Context. Ah. With as much liberation as we can and healing and these things and so as you're talking about that. What I really appreciate is that it sounds like you're very much leaning into that growth edge and doing it. Doing things in a different way and that it's very much reflected in your business.

04:13.95

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah, absolutely I mean I've found that in needing to disrupt and divorce and dismantle from white supremacy that I've had to get to do a lot of inner work and practice self-awareness and in that practice. Um, there's been a lot of healing That's actually been needed because when you have awareness, you start to recognize you know the patterns and situations that you keep finding yourself in and recognizing. Yes, there's the individual relationships and there's the teams. But then you start to see the systemic conditioning that impacts us all and so I've been on this journey that I'm asking leaders to do and I'm still walking alongside because the work I know we don't want to hear it, but it's ongoing. It's lifelong. Um, and there's waves to it. Um, and this is my season and lifetime to not just ride the wave but really be the wave. Yeah yeah.

05:20.67

kitedart

Yeah, so True. So I love that and it is so ongoing. I mean I I started my journey in the 90s like in college and it's a few years later. It's still. Still still working on it still still a work in progress and that's like my own personal journey. Not to mention the systemic journey right? like that that um, it's on its ongoing work at the micro level and at the macro Level. So I Really appreciate that I'm wondering.

05:39.97

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah.

05:48.27

Jillian Mama J Love

To mortally. Ah.

05:54.79

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah, or.

05:57.97

kitedart

You would share I know that you've been in this place of kind of pivoting or adjusting being responsive to what's happening and so I'm wondering if you. Would share with us a little bit of what you've been chewing On. Maybe I don't know how um sort of formed right? I know that that you're you're kind of about this co-creation which I Love and appreciate. But like maybe some of the the changes transitions things like that that you've been making in the work that you do.

06:31.51

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah, for sure I mean I think it's important to to really ground into ah what you named from the onset of of liberation. Um, right before the world shut down I had the the the privilege and. Possibility of attending the national equity writing project's liberatory design training and they've partnered with the d school the Stanford d school to create a deck called liberatory design. So I have really. Taken this that this moment in time that we were in of like going through the training the world shutting down being like what's happening wanting to also reimagine as we were all very much sheltered in place like what is how is this going to shift our world knowing that. Ah, consciousness is rising not just with covid 19 right? But the various epidemics pandemics that are now at the intersections climate change. Um the racial wake up of Twenty Twenty for white folks is how I I lovingly frame it. Um. And many others right? that we're seeing around the world. We're now having a global conversation about colonization right? with um the recent passing of the queen so there's ah, there's all these like intersections that rose up but for me in particular it was as the pandemic was beginning.

08:02.50

Jillian Mama J Love

And having this training that reminded me, there's possibilities. We can design new ways different ways. Um that work for more folks. Um, and really that collectivist approach and so like any good. Researcher designer I wanted to practice that and I had the the opportunity to practice that with with 5 organizations one being my own because I believe if you're going to do this work. You've also got to model it. Um, and it's led me here which. Ultimately at the time I was I had a lot of things on my plate I was trying to do a lot of things for a lot of different folks and as I slowly streamlineed that it became very clear like I was working in six month cycles and while that was helpful for the work. It was morphing and always becoming more and I actually found myself in a couple of contexts where I was essentially a consultant but I was like their pseudo dei person right? and so I was holding a lot more than. What I necessarily signed on for because I care about this work right? It became a slippery slope. Um, and so as I think many folks had to learn during this time of practicing boundaries setting boundaries readjusting what what work and containers look like as.

09:36.35

Jillian Mama J Love

We've been living through lifelong trauma now for multiple years and so for me, the shift has really been in my business structure being one of a six month container a retainer container to I tried on having a vip day where I really took. The transformation we were doing in 6 twelve eighteen months and and putting it in a day where that learning was happening and then ah you know the leader has a plan I still offer that but I was also finding that in those engagements a lot of what we were talking about were. Folks feeling like they were alone and they didn't have someone who would speak up with them or for them or when those tough conversations needed to be to happen and so that's really led me to my most responsive shift is to. You know, really I think this is the moment we need to focus on bite size and deliberate equity outcomes. They've been named. But how are we actually addressing them and really bringing together 2 to 4 leaders to design around that one equity outcome. So that's really my focus right now. Really focused deliberate equity projects where I'm not holding it necessarily. But I'm guiding folks to engage in this work because that was also something I was finding it was easy for leaders to say.

11:08.32

Jillian Mama J Love

We've hired Jilly and Mama J she's doing great. She's done this training we have this data and what are we going to do with it right? and it can't just be handed off to someone else. We all we have to. Learn relearn how to engage in this work as leaders.

11:25.46

kitedart

Yeah, thanks for sharing that that journey and it is it. Yeah, it's so and I mean first of all kind of with the I mean you're talking about the retainer and that you are really being handed. Little more than you signed on for right and that idea of like well we've hired them and we had this training and right there's there's the performative side of this work and I feel like you know I talked to so many folks who are in the Jedi. Consulting world and that is like a constant thing I feel like that I hear over and over and and I felt it myself I don't I don't I don't feel like I feel it so much with my clients but I'm working with like these micro entrepreneurs and so it's like they're choosing.

12:14.48

Jillian Mama J Love

Great.

12:18.93

kitedart

Specifically that this is the take they want it the the approach or the the lens that they want to have for their business. So it's it's like most of them are solopreneurs and so it's kind of a little easier but it's like um I still see in the world right? There's so much of the performativeness and.

12:38.44

kitedart

It's It's not my problem somebody else is going to do this thing for us or have this training as if that's going to cause the transformation and you know it just it's not enough right? It's much deeper much deeper work and. And then I and and so I really appreciate that and and I also Appreciate. Um, you know when you're talking about these sort of designing these bite Size. You know the word I Want to say is Campaigns. It's not the word you use but you know he's.

13:13.24

Jillian Mama J Love

Outcomes. Yeah.

13:13.92

kitedart

Outcomes right? that that you have this specific outcome and we're working towards this um I'm curious when you say 2 to 4 leaders are they usually leaders from the same organization or from a different organization are still just however, it works out kind of a thing.

13:27.50

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah for for right now. It's within an organization right? So I mean I think what's you know, become quite commonplace right? is many of our organization have Kpis we've set what we want to happen for say equity or even diversity representation right.

13:31.19

kitedart

Okay.

13:46.85

Jillian Mama J Love

And it looks different at every organization, but there tends to be someone responsible and then other leaders that either weigh in or could provide another perspective. Is that person that holds the stakeholder group. Maybe right at the org like the board right? like there's normally someone who is in that coordination and so a Matt like bringing together those leaders so that no one's doing this work alone because that's also become.

14:14.41

kitedart

Um, never.

14:16.23

Jillian Mama J Love

Kind of the flagship of this work is oh we've hired. Ah you know a dei director. We've hired a manager if you look at any of the job descriptions on Linkedin for these jobs. The the pool is pretty small if that's who you really like expect um to be. To get you know like people are looking for 10 years of experience and certifications and it's fascinating because that all just feels like gatekeeping um because this work has been happening for for decades even centuries right? It's movement work.

14:43.18

kitedart

Asked.

14:52.45

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, it's giving voice to to the to the folks that aren't heard and listened to right are often the ones laboring now we talk about labor in more expansive ways right? The mental labor the emotional labor the physical like physical labor is something I think we've historically always talked about. But not the other parts of that. Um, that most folks of color folks on the Margins Queer folks hold.

15:19.69

kitedart

Yeah, that makes perfect sense. No I I really like that approach I think that that's I think I think when you had described it to me before I was thinking it was sort of 2 to 4 leaders from different organizations coming together and while I think that could be powerful if.

15:33.14

Jillian Mama J Love

Ah, yeah.

15:36.59

kitedart

If it's a smaller organization and they don't have that many leaders you know, kind of a thing to be able to come together. But I really I really Love that that you're talking about it for folks within an organization so that there it isn't 1 person trying to move the work forward. And that they're designing it together. So I think that's I Love that approach and I am going to really I'm I'm I'm looking forward to hearing how it goes as you progress with it for sure. Um I this is just another curiosity because.

16:05.56

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah.

16:15.68

kitedart

You so I can't remember exactly the comment you said earlier but you were talking about white folks. Well I think you were talking about Twenty Twenty right and that it's white folks are are like waking up to what's going on and what's been going on. Um, do you tend to work. More with white folks with people of color with whoever the leaders are um I don't and maybe maybe it's just whoever.

16:40.62

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah I mean you know it's been a mix I think it's important to name just the reality of work in the social sector right? that if you're at the leadership table. Um, and as a consultant you're at least the work I've held is at that leadership level with either executive teams or boards that most of those are made up of white folks. Um, and so you know I think what? what.

17:03.57

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, understood.

17:10.80

Jillian Mama J Love

Sets me apart. Um is that you know I have the lived experience of living in our society and I was birth from a white woman. Um, So there's this dance and dynamic of of white womenness that I have both. Learned and have been on a journey of unlearning quite frankly, um so it's a both and um and I think that's also one of the things I grapple with because it is more labor working with white folks. You know the impact. That I feel from doing this work sometimes and how folks choose to show up and communicate or not um has had an impact and so for me at this Point. It's a both and but I'm also really being mindful of how do I.

17:51.51

kitedart

My.

18:04.25

Jillian Mama J Love

Value my time and energy to hold that work. Um, and that's that's you know the grapple always of like what do you charge? How do you?? How do you place a value on this work that is is actually really deep and transformational and um. Yeah, asking folks to do things that they've likely not done before in the workplace.

18:27.50

kitedart

Yeah, it's a lot I think it's extremely valuable and I think it's worth a lot and I think people should be paying you gobs and gobs of money. That's my take on it and throw the money to Mama j.

18:30.85

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah.

18:39.26

Jillian Mama J Love

We're calling it In. We're calling it in. Ah, yeah.

18:46.45

kitedart

Gonna make shit happen right? like not makes it happen like but like bring like bring the bring bring what needs to be brought to make it happen. You know like I Yeah yeah.

18:57.25

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah I want to be a source of Love and like any powerful Mama I believe right? like there's tough Love and there's radical, honesty and it's uncomfortable. But I feel like this is the moment I want to say like it's uncomfortable for me too right? like I even though I've chosen this lane. There are moments where I don't want to be in this way I very much would like to be like why isn't my calling something else and um I think that's.

19:24.96

kitedart

Um, yeah.

19:32.50

Jillian Mama J Love

That's how that sometimes works right? and so it's coming from a source of Love and it's uncomfortable. Um, but I think it's supposed to be. Yeah yeah.

19:42.29

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, it's It's so funny because I feel like for me as Well. It's been very uncomfortable. A lot of the time and I've had I I've had so many times as well where I'm like why? Why do I. Have to do something I'm so passionate about and why do I have to care so much about things and why do I have to feel things so deeply you know and it's like I I appreciate it and it's also sometimes it's a lot. Um, so I really get that and for me.

20:21.80

kitedart

Just share something that's really helped me not that you were asking but just a thing that that I I think part of it had to do with um, leaning into the discomfort was was really coming at the work that I do um from a place of commitment over comfort and that I'm committed.

20:37.20

Jillian Mama J Love

Then.

20:40.45

kitedart

To living in a world that is really different than the world I see right now and that that commitment is more important than my discomfort right? and and it's. And it's you know what you were just sharing right about the white woman. You know thing like I me too like I'm multiracial I was raised by a white family I'm adopted raised by white Family. So I've got ah different aspects to my identity and. My feelings of belonging and inclusion and so I feel like that that right to comfort that fear of open conflict like these things that are things that were very deeply rooted in me and so I just tried to like as much as possible like. Lean into commitment over comfort because yeah I Just like why would I have a right to be comfortable. There's so many people that don't get to be comfortable on a day to day basis I have my own ways that that.

21:50.21

Jillian Mama J Love

Ah, literally.

21:52.43

kitedart

Don't get to be comfortable or I don't feel like I belong but like I've also still got a lot of privilege and so like yeah I'm just leaning in.

22:01.15

Jillian Mama J Love

Same Yeah I can relate to that I'm gonna merge I feel like you know we often say ah for me I think the phrasing has been courage over comfort um and knowing that courage the root of courage is heart and you know heart is That. Center for me I've come to learn I actually have an open heart center like from a you know if you study human design which is one of the many personality things you know we could get into but I think for me that was a powerful lesson and knowing like. Yeah, it's going to feel Uncomfortable. So I appreciate that that added it feels like an added bomb of like courageous commitment. Um, and I think that that is been the discomfort of how committed like you have to be vigilant. Um.

22:44.58

kitedart

And.

22:56.49

Jillian Mama J Love

And the various areas of your life. Um, when you value Justice and equity and inclusion and belonging. Yeah, you know.

23:06.30

kitedart

Yeah, so true. Well and I know um I If you don't mind I'd Love to bring in even just I know that you've talked about radical rest right? And how? um.

23:15.50

Jillian Mama J Love

The.

23:20.34

kitedart

Again, it's the both and right I feel like every conversation we have well you know we're talking both and but it's like yep and that's what so but you know that that it's like there's and I Love I would I would Love to also adopt the courageous commitment over comfort. You know? and so there is that and there is that leaning into it. But then there's also the need for rest and healing and taking care of ourselves and um, you know even like the Adrian Marie Brown like the. Um, pleasure activism right? and and these ideas and you said it earlier around joy and justice I think you said you know in your introduction that that it's like we need all of that right? Yeah, we can lean in and be be uncomfortable and we also need to take care of ourselves because otherwise we're just not.

23:59.48

Jillian Mama J Love

Are.

24:11.13

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, yeah, absolutely I mean the hats that you know we wear I mean I Just it's it's a dance. Um I you know we were chatting at one point.

24:13.40

kitedart

Able to keep going.

24:21.71

kitedart

Yeah.

24:26.72

Jillian Mama J Love

Preparing for this conversation and like talking about balance right? and balance I think is bullshit because you're never like at fifty fifty or you're never fully at like 100 % and so at least in our current reality and so. And that's even after a year of deliberately resting. So I'm here to say like my nervous system is rested which is a gift and I don't take lightly and it's still operating in this world that doesn't stop. Like there's something every day whether it's in the collective or in my daily life in this work like there's there's something to navigate to respond to or be thoughtful about how to respond to and so yeah, rest I think. The most powerful thing that I've recently learned is that there's 7 types of rest. Um and honoring that even after right a year of rest that or learning how to build it in to my schedule that now I'm at like going to that next level right? to say. Ah, what kind of rest am I actually looking for during this time period is it emotional rest is it physical rest I just need to sleep for a couple days which is not easy to do as a parent and as one who parents across 2 households it. It is a little more in my um.

25:36.67

kitedart

I.

25:53.50

Jillian Mama J Love

Reality and so yeah, we've we've got to find the ways and spaces for defining rest for ourselves because I think that's what's also become clear in this journey of. Truly so adding sustainability to the dei conversation is that there isn't 1 right way to rest or what that looks like for us it really is dependent on what you're navigating and so so many layers of wellness quite frankly.

26:23.49

kitedart

Yeah, so true. So true I know you brought up education earlier and you know I a lot of my background's in education and I could never figure out the rest thing. As an educator other than summer you know and then it was just like okay I'm going get I'm going to try to get all of my kinds of rest in these two and a half months and that's totally not sustainable. So um, I've oh yeah.

26:39.86

Jillian Mama J Love

You hear.

26:51.60

Jillian Mama J Love

Totally and because then you're just looking for the next break right? and I think we've all gotten into that cycle. That's that hamster wheel of not just education but capitalism right? Um, and especially if you're a parent.

26:57.78

kitedart

Yeah, yeah.

27:07.90

Jillian Mama J Love

And and and in business work life right? You're trying to somehow overlap those 2 which don't work together because like I'll say it my kid gets out of school at 27 that's like not too far from now and like I'm still in the middle.

27:19.35

kitedart

Yeah, yeah.

27:24.98

Jillian Mama J Love

My work day. You know like this is where I feel the most alive and juicy and like ready to to do the work. Um and yet their day is is wrapping you know and so it's it's a moment of you know I'm.

27:35.80

kitedart

Yeah.

27:41.26

Jillian Mama J Love

We get to reimagine I'm not sure that's necessarily happening in education right now, but it really would be useful.

27:47.64

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, well and even even the kiddos you know I mean um, one of my kids you know five days a week with 2000 people in a school is a lot for her. You know the year that with with covid and.

28:04.50

Jillian Mama J Love

I Know what year is it? yeah.

28:04.86

kitedart

Like White year I guess the latter half a 20202021 I earlier in covid you know, like ah the hybrid model was really great for her because she could go to school two days a week only half of the students were there the other three days she was home kind of you know. Homework self-directed now. Granted high schooler. There's a lot more independence I know that that era was very hard for folks of younger kids and I just can't even imagine like what that was like but um, you know.

28:26.87

Jillian Mama J Love

1 i.

28:38.73

kitedart

I Think that they're that there definitely and could be so many possibilities for reimagining education and the corporate world and the nonprofit I mean it's everything needs to be looked at I feel super thankful that as a as a consultant as a business owner I've.

28:41.16

Jillian Mama J Love

Again.

28:58.39

kitedart

Found so much more balance and sustainability again. I don't Love that word balance either. But I've found I feel like I've found a way to go at a much more sustainable pace and be able to create that space. And it also has an impact too though like it can have a real impact on how much business I have right? and so as a business owner if you take your foot off the gas for too Long. You're not going to have work coming in and um so it's it's not like it's without impact.

29:18.56

Jillian Mama J Love

Totally.

29:33.10

kitedart

But it's like what's the dance between that sustainability and being able to you know, keep going as a business owner right? I mean the reality is for a lot of business owners that they've got to keep the money coming in or they can't stay in business. So.

29:43.71

Jillian Mama J Love

Totally.

29:50.70

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah, and I and I want to like it is a dance and I think it's a moment of of of radical honesty that might invent like it was a personal investment to rest for a year I took

29:52.98

kitedart

It's ah I think it's a dance.

30:07.36

Jillian Mama J Love

Funds for my retirement and built it into a business structure where I could think through what rest looks like so that you know it helped me heal. But ultimately I've I've built a body of work that you know I believe will.

30:12.95

kitedart

And then.

30:22.48

Jillian Mama J Love

Support folks in the Future. You know it's still kind of marinating behind the scenes and and whatnot. But I do know that like that was a risk that I I took I I don't have any like Qualms that I you know or regrets that I did it I think there's. A lot I learned in it that I would do differently but I think that would happen whether it was my money or someone else's money right? Um, and that's what it required I couldn't keep going at the pace I was going to support everybody else.

30:49.71

kitedart

Yeah.

30:57.00

Jillian Mama J Love

Um I had to I had to come back into into my vision and part of my vision is is rest and sustainability. So if this you know resonates with folks I Think there's there's an opportunity to invest. Um, and what does this look like not just.

31:04.87

kitedart

Yeah.

31:16.10

Jillian Mama J Love

You know in business but for black and brown queer marginalized folks holding this work because I know I'm not the only one who's experienced harm and and need and need rest rest can be our our reparations and investment and rest. I But I truly believe.

31:36.00

kitedart

Um, yeah, yeah, oh I Love that Okay I feel like we could. This is so juicy we could keep going and going and going I would Love to switch it back a little bit to business which that was kind of a good segue. So um, I'd Love to ask if you'd share.

31:45.76

Jillian Mama J Love

Ah, yeah, yeah.

31:53.40

kitedart

With us just a little you know what are some of those struggles that you've had along the way and and obviously we're already talking about it right? So what are some of the other struggles that you've maybe experienced along the way as a business owner.

32:06.71

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah I mean I think it's really also important to name you know I'm I'm a triple threat and I and I say that with a lot of Love I even was the title of my master's thesis. Um, as a black queer ah student athlete at the time now black. Queer Mama so you know I shifted that that triple threat part but also it still feels very relevant and navigating what I will lovingly call or actually was reflected back to me when I was talking about. Um. My my ah recent my goal my audacious goal of um, making and saving a hundred k um in a quarter because I have a plan but I need that you know like we're working with needing the funds to to implement that plan and so it's It's the mental gymnastics really? That's um, required of you know I think we we mystify or oversimplify I'm still trying to figure out that framing. But ultimately you know the dream is to be your own boss. But I feel like what we don't often talk about. Is that when you when you're your own boss. You're also all the various departments yourhr your admin your you're the Cfo right? There's these different layers until you can grow and scale where you're holding all the pieces and so for me, that's really.

33:22.44

kitedart

Yes.

33:37.53

Jillian Mama J Love

What's been. My anchor has been my values because even as I'm in the dance of those various things. Um, it gives it gives me like the things to root into because you know what I've experienced in the last few years in particular is.

33:57.20

Jillian Mama J Love

And don't even want to say it's a rise um in Anti-blackness I Think it's ah, an awareness. Um, since I've gone in this deep dive of white supremacy culture recognizing that.

34:11.37

Jillian Mama J Love

Anti-blackness is at the root of that. That's how white supremacy is maintained and finding my voice in that finding that I get to to speak my truth to our point earlier even when it's uncomfortable because I'm courageously committed. This dismantling? Um, and so the result of that has been having to walk away from opportunities because they were out of alignment having those challenging conversations when I experienced Anti-blackness. Um. And I think the one I'm having maybe you know the biggest challenge Navigating. It's not even a navigating anymore I think it's just still sitting with it is the professional ghosting that comes from when you've said a hard thing or done challenging work together and.

35:00.71

kitedart

Ah.

35:06.40

Jillian Mama J Love

It ends you know and there's no repairing harm. You're just kind of left with like oh Wow we went through that but we're not going to talk about it. Um, which I think we can all you know relate to from a like family familiar.

35:14.76

kitedart

Yeah, of.

35:23.86

Jillian Mama J Love

Community standpoint. But I think it's 1 professionally that we don't we don't often talk about.

35:32.47

kitedart

Um I Love that I Love that you're bringing that up right now I don't Love that it happens and has happened to you and I Love that you're bringing it up because I think that well I really appreciate you know where you're talking about that. It.

35:38.22

Jillian Mama J Love

Appreciate that.

35:46.94

Jillian Mama J Love

Of 5

35:49.99

kitedart

You're coming from this place of values alignment and things have to be aligned and when they're not that you know you're walking away and and I get that that's hard. Ah, especially right one is you want to make a difference but also when there's money on the table right? and you're doing all of the things and money helps. Right? Like money gives us access to more time it gives us access to well it gives us access to our life working but it gives access to more time and being able to think about how we want to scale and um and so I I get that that can be hard to stay.

36:13.98

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah.

36:28.32

kitedart

True to that and I Also think it's really important even even coming back to a sustainability standpoint I think that staying true to those values is really important because when we're working with those people that we're not aligned with who don't care about. Who don't really care about what we care about and who aren't really committed to it so much more harm can be done I think and it's so much more exhausting and frustrating and all of those things. So from that sustainability standpoint I think it's really Important. Um. But on the ghosting piece I think when I when you're talking about you know, leaning into the discomfort to talk about.. How do we? Dismantle white supremacy culture and talk about topics that.

37:22.92

Jillian Mama J Love

You know.

37:23.51

kitedart

A lot of people don't want to talk about a lot of people don't want to even admit are real right? that? um, that also talking about that ghosting is important as well, right? and and that as you talk about that ghosting That. Also. I think can be further brought into finding that values alignment I Guess is what I'm saying you know what? I mean so it's like calling it out doesn't help for where it's already happened. Um and I get that that that doesn't feel good and there's harm that's been done and then you're just left. Like okay, we're not going to repair this but it's also an opportunity to further call that out and how that's another part of the problem and we need to work on this as well. So that hopefully those who are. Coming to you as far as work are they have that in mind right? and that that's not that's not how you roll. That's not you know I don't know it was just the thought I had as you were talking about that.

38:25.24

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, totally yeah, totally I mean as you were speaking what rose up for me and I hadn't made the connection yet is. The link between like the professional ghosting and this whole conversation that's happening right around quiet quitting right? and it's really about like it feels at the core. It's about boundaries right? and being transparent and I think that's the challenge with the ghosting piece because we haven't.

38:43.77

kitedart

And.

38:57.10

Jillian Mama J Love

You know I I believe I'm an elder millennial by definition that like I know that I was not taught you know the social emotional curriculum that our young people are being taught right? and so it's like we don't have that language for like when our feelings get hurt.

39:13.64

kitedart

Mile.

39:14.84

Jillian Mama J Love

Are we going to navigate that in the workplace. And yeah, when I'm going to call out or call in and say I'm I'm experiencing say power hoarding or you're being like overly nice about the situation and I'm actually experiencing something really challenging right? like that that. Again, it comes down to like the discomfort or the desire to to continue comfort that I think we're we're experiencing on many layers and levels of um, yeah, that comfort piece it. It gets us every time.

39:48.96

kitedart

Um, yeah, it does I feel so thankful I'm going to give a little shout out to my business partner here. Ne is she laughguard because you know we we both dove into.

39:54.17

Jillian Mama J Love

Love it.

40:03.79

kitedart

For me reengaging I'm not so sure for him if it was reengaging or justengaging but in a lot of our own identity work in 2018 and we started working with the tamo okoonn um white supremacist characteristics of white supremacist culture I don't know the exact name I know you know what? because you've got a.

40:18.30

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah, yes, yeah.

40:22.81

kitedart

Reimagining of it right um that you share. Um and I don't know if I said her name right? But um, we we really embraced that article and it was kind of great because we had an open invitation with one another to. Use that as language in a frame of reference for calling things out and so it was really great to like and and it was so uncomfortable at first like so uncomfortable whether I was on the receiving end or the giving end. It didn't feel good at all, but it was.

40:43.88

Jillian Mama J Love

And here.

40:55.91

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, mortally.

40:59.39

kitedart

Such a great experience. You know, um as we were partnering we we kind of started it as we started a kind of limited partnership before I came over here full time and and it was just really ultimately became very liberating to just be able to call those things out and bring it in. As part of our um, commitment to 1 another to the relationship. Um, and I definitely I definitely you know, really hear what you're saying and and it's like.

41:34.50

kitedart

Creating those spaces which I think is part of the work that you're doing right is being able to create the the container where people will be willing to take those risks and have those conversations. Um, it's part of the work you do right? I Also know there's an action piece. But but that.

41:48.50

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, yeah.

41:53.73

kitedart

That having those conversations. Um, oh I Just I Just really encourage anybody to lean into that despite the discomfort.

42:03.80

Jillian Mama J Love

Totally I mean I think that's that's the dismantling the business as usual, right? because even for myself as a black queer woman until I found that article or that article came into my life I didn't have the language either and then it was like.

42:10.43

kitedart

Um, yeah.

42:22.90

Jillian Mama J Love

Light bulb after light bulb kept popping off of like oh that describes the experience I've had right? I think you know as ah as a person of color we can We know like it falls sometimes into that microaggressions Bias category. But I think what's.

42:41.78

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, you know that combination of brutal but also beautiful right? That like there's a way to talk about this that you know I think it's folks are challenged because it can feel so personal but it's actually talking about a system.

42:46.73

kitedart

Have.

42:59.32

Jillian Mama J Love

We've all been conditioned into that was actually not of our choosing right? Um, and we were very much conditioned into it from the various you know structures our families schools churches all the organizations you get to choose to participate.

43:03.77

kitedart

Yeah.

43:18.32

Jillian Mama J Love

Participate in right? it it all has influence. Um, so.

43:21.69

kitedart

Yeah, so true I know when I started that work I had this whole just new wave I had left education and I had a whole new wave of discomfort and guilt and. Being ashamed for my complicity as an educator right that I had to grapple with and just like come to terms with like it. It already existed but it was like this whole new level where I was just like oh my gosh like ah but but yeah to your point. It's.

43:46.37

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, yeah.

44:00.39

kitedart

It is it is the air we breathe it is everywhere. So um I think it's really powerful and and I feel like learning about it through the lens of this is part of white supremacist culture was so powerful for me. I had already started doing my own when I went I went through a coaching program in 16 and I was doing my own work around like finally waking up and realizing that my perfectionism wasn't serving me well and like oh wait a minute this this is not a badge of honor I'm wearing here. But.

44:33.66

Jillian Mama J Love

Now.

44:38.43

kitedart

It was still sort of in my brain as like this character fall so to speak until I got to that article and then it was like this was done to me like intentionally which was. Great it like it gave me a whole new power over it so to speak I think which was really liberating for me personally. So um.

44:58.30

Jillian Mama J Love

Absolutely and I can imagine as folks in education right? like in education. We Love a good a plus you know so at some point in our journey you know like it. It cemented our desire for that perfectionism. So I can I can relate a lot I think.

45:17.41

kitedart

Yeah, yeah.

45:17.62

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah I can I can I can have that t-shirt too of like unlearning the perfectionism in some ways I think is is the awakening for many folks in this journey? Um, ah, being like oh that's not.

45:30.10

kitedart

Yeah.

45:33.99

Jillian Mama J Love

Ah, character flaw I think the same could be said for impostor syndrome right? I think there's a beautiful thread of the conversation that's like actually it's not you. It's the system. Um, and you're feeling the doubt and the and the the fear because.

45:36.69

kitedart

Now.

45:43.96

kitedart

Yes.

45:50.46

Jillian Mama J Love

This That's how the system keeps going. So yeah, it makes so much sense.

45:51.87

kitedart

Yeah, so True. So So so true. Yeah I appreciate that? Yeah I Totally appreciate that. So Thank you for sharing all of that and I'd I'd Love to kind of transition again or kind of. Take this to the next step in having a short coaching conversation and looking at something that you are currently not like the other stuff's gone. So I get that that it's not like okay I solved all of that. Um, but but.

46:18.19

Jillian Mama J Love

In the mix. Let's put it in the past.

46:26.79

kitedart

You know, taking a little bit of a deeper look at something that you feel like is really resonant that you're grappling with right now in your business.

46:33.37

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah, yeah, so as I you know as I'm on ah a hunt a mission to really find the aligned you know teams that want to engage in both justice and joy because I believe we get to have both and our leadership. Um. Especially now more so than ever we we've part what feels like justice is is the Love and joy that can come from doing this work. Um, and I think that what I'm grappling with in my business right now is what feels like the disconnection. And that's the best way I know how to to name it the disconnect between the companies. The organizations, the leaders who created and crafted these beautiful dei statements commitments. Um, in 2020 and some even a few years before that because I was engaged in the work before that happened? Um, but really noticing that like it's a lot of talk um with not a lot of action.

47:29.68

kitedart

Love that.

47:39.56

Jillian Mama J Love

And I'm also noticing with the fear and reality I think we're in the dance to see which is the case yet right around recession and us all experiencing life being more expensive on this other side of um. Intersecting Pandemics I'm I'm just wondering like what's what's the gap that we need to close from folks saying they're going to do the work committing to doing the work even putting money and budgets towards the work hiring a person. Um, but it feels like we're still swirling in that and not actually moving the needle for the stakeholders that need it the most right? So you know I'm thinking about in particular I'm you know as a parent I'm navigating this very deeply.

48:26.35

kitedart

Of.

48:35.89

Jillian Mama J Love

In my kiddo school of like folks, you know folks it was at 1 place before the pandemic and because we all went online. You know folks really kind of got to the bare essentials of what you needed to keep going and now that we're coming back and being in community right? where there's a need. Um, and so closing that gap of the need when there's also folks here willing and ready to do that work but not willing to do it for you which I think is also the rub. It's a lot easier to hire a consultant and be like.

49:06.90

kitedart

Yeah.

49:10.91

Jillian Mama J Love

Do this and make it look like we're doing this and and you do the work. Um, but actually having leaders who commit who are committed to the to the statements to the values. Um, how do we?? How do we engage in it Authentically um I think the phrasing. That I'm holding is I'm really thinking about Personally how do I Authentically embody my values values of truth telling integrity Community authenticity. Um, and at the core I Love um, those are those are some pretty big shoes. Step into and I'm not the only organization like many organizations have named very similar values. So That's the grapple I'm with knowing I can fill a need and seeing the need so clearly.

49:59.61

kitedart

Yeah.

50:06.16

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, but not wanting to water it down to like another training that I don't actually think is needed.

50:13.75

kitedart

Just a little thing.

50:16.52

Jillian Mama J Love

Just a little thing. Yeah.

50:19.71

kitedart

Yeah, such a good question and um.

50:32.46

kitedart

It I I mean honestly, it it's I feel like there's so many folks feeling that you know right now and um, it's funny as you were talking. You know, usually I'm minute usually I'm going to respond with a question and and I just want to reflect if you don't mind because I yeah I'm like yes, but I you know I kind of want to reflect but back that um or what.

50:52.94

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, and.

51:06.70

kitedart

Came up for me as you were talking one is like this idea that people crafted these statements right in 2020 like policy statements and um and and commitment statements. And it I feel like it's it's again, like so entrenched in the system right of like quick answers quick fixes like. We're going to say these are our values but we're not going to live them right and I and I really hear that it's about how are we going to live these things. How are we going to embody these things what work are we going to do to move that forward and so. Part of me is like this I it's not a matter that the policy statements should be thrown out but there's just something so much more important than the policy statements. You know, um.

I think that I think your question mama j is is like such a good question I think that it's. I think it's really complex and I guess one thing I would I'd call in um, has to do with um, something something that we use at kitened art so we talk about source commitments at Kitenedart instead of values and.

00:38.27

Jillian Mama J Love

And.

00:42.93

kitedart

I Think unfortunately that you know, kind of back to the performative thing right? that that that there's a lot of things that we're told we're supposed to value um in this world since 2020 right? There's there's been more um awareness raised. And I think people feel like they're supposed to be committed and they're supposed to do these things but but is that commitment really like at a deep level or is it. You know this? We're just going to say it. We're going to do a few things and call it good and so we talk about source commitments over values.

01:13.58

Jillian Mama J Love

And here.

01:20.40

kitedart

And that source commitments are like these deeper layers and really looking at what it is. We're committed to creating in the world. Not just like what we value but what are we really committed to creating and then the work that we do with people is around. How do you infuse that into every decision that you're making and how do you embody that? How do you show up being that on a daily basis and that that becomes the lens and then and then working to hold 1 another accountable to that. And I feel like when you were talking earlier about ah kind of the new ways you're shifting your work around creating these small cohorts of people who are working to you know design.

02:15.44

kitedart

Design the work they're going to do and have these stated outcomes that are measurable and focused right? that that maybe that's part of the answer. Um and that you're doing it. You know.

02:26.18

Jillian Mama J Love

Um, and yeah.

02:30.32

kitedart

And I think finding the right people is going to be a matter of continuing to talk about it and continuing to and I get that it can be risky right in in a society where there is Anti-blackness Anti-queerness. There's a lot of. You know, like you said you've got triple threat and so you know that's that's both a ah good thing and it provides some challenges and so I get that. Um, speaking out can be risky. And at the same time.. It's like how do we continue to like just keep calling it out and calling it out and calling it out and the people who that's resonating with are the ones I think who will pick it up and want to answer that Call. Um.

03:20.16

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah.

03:24.24

kitedart

And that that's balanced with all of the sustainability stuff that we just talked about too and how do you? How do you do it in a way that's sustainable for you.

03:35.93

Jillian Mama J Love

Yeah I mean I think that's the the additional grapple or the personal within that larger grapple I'm holding for my business in this work. Um, as a whole is um.

03:53.16

Jillian Mama J Love

My goodness I had the full thought evaporated. You might edit out this evaporation. Um, that wasn't it. Um I mean I think what's.

03:57.74

kitedart

Yeah I probably talk too long so you know.

04:09.60

Jillian Mama J Love

Clear for me is happy being in dialogue that's where I wanted to go So I'll start here but like I want to be in dialogue about it because I think also the trap is.

04:17.90

kitedart

Um, yeah.

04:24.13

Jillian Mama J Love

Individualism and that like I'm supposed to have it all figured out by myself right? So even being in this conversation elevating my grapple means that I'm no longer doing it alone I'm already designing with you Whoever is listening. Um, so here's a call right of like.

04:41.29

kitedart

Yes.

04:43.58

Jillian Mama J Love

We get to design this together like my container is is the offer what happens in that container is based on what we decide as an equity outcome and there's ways I can help get us there I mean there's these global diversity and inclusion Benchmarks. We don't need to recreate the Wheel. Um. Experts around the world have said what modeling these um values but I would actually now take your reframe of source commitments right to our ah different world. Um is where we're at and so I. I am grateful to be able to like talk about this complexity because living it feeling it in your body. Um, it can be a lot and so even just having this conversation and getting it out of my head or out of the. Intimate conversations I have with business friends and and mentors right? like it's it's it's useful. Um, and I think we sometimes forget that part of the process that like we can't hold it all in and that's the other layer I would say is that by you. Being in conversation with me about these challenging Uncomfortable topics. Um, you're putting something on the line and so that's also where I'm noticing I'm at of like sure I know it's a risk to speak up I've been speaking up most of my life and.

06:18.74

Jillian Mama J Love

I Need folks by my side who are willing to do that. Um, so I don't always have to hold that labor and other folks that look like me to name that like it's personal, but it's also very much like it is. It's.

06:24.49

kitedart

Beautiful Yes, and in.

06:37.72

Jillian Mama J Love

It's essential and and for many folks deadly right to to to speak out and so I'm that's also the grapple as well.

06:45.76

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, and I Love even in you naming that right that I heard I you know what you named as values earlier I think from everything I know of you. Those are your source commitments right? and Love is like my number one I feel like it all comes down to that and there's other pieces I've named and I feel like when you're you know community is one of yours and so right again, right? there that's access to. Like you said the answer to the co-creation like I feel like source commitments is almost always the answer. Um you know with the way that Tama Okoon document works right? It's like they've got the characteristic and then the antidote I feel like my source commitments are my antidote to all of the things and so.

07:22.90

Jillian Mama J Love

A.

07:33.56

Jillian Mama J Love

I Love that.

07:37.19

kitedart

Every time something something stops me every time I feel blocked every time I feel stuck every time I feel the doubt or the imposter syndrome looking for. How can I be my source commitments and if I'm being my source commitments. What actions now become available to me that aren't available when I'm being stuck in white supremacy or patriarchy or etc etc. So That's my offering and it sounds like I did huge question So I'm glad like.

08:06.48

Jillian Mama J Love

Totally.

08:15.17

kitedart

I'm glad that you got something from that and I will always be in this conversation with you. So anytime you need to talk you hit me up and I am happy to do this anytime? Um, so with yes to be to to be continued and and I invite all of my listeners right? like.

08:18.69

Jillian Mama J Love

Totally I Love it. Awesome to be continued here.

08:33.92

kitedart

Come on y'all like let's do this together. You know that's the only way right? Um, so with that I would Love to wrap up with 2 quick things at Kite + Dart. We talk about entrepreneurial activism all the time could you just give me a quick rapid fire answer on what.

08:36.93

Jillian Mama J Love

So it is.

08:51.60

kitedart

Does entrepreneurial activism mean to you.

08:55.64

Jillian Mama J Love

I mean it lit me up is what I'll say I had a ah body Tingle um I think for me what I want to say is it's about using our power I think many of us. Become entrepreneurs because of a desire to do something different and or because we couldn't be or be or do what we needed to do in the traditional job market and so it's about agency. It's about power. It's about What are you? What are you committing to um and how is that going to continue to be a source um to make change. Um I know it's not by accident that I'm I've continued this entrepreneurial journey. Um, and as I continue on it. It.

09:37.91

kitedart

Of.

09:49.36

Jillian Mama J Love

It reminds me of how like I'm healing and I'm breaking intergenerational chains of you know, even my parents who started on this path didn't see themselves as activists but were doing what supported them at the time and you know I think there's an evolution of that. And so allow this journey to evolve you because it will um and and don't forget to use your voice. Yeah.

10:20.60

kitedart

Love that beautifully said. Thank you last thing will you just share with my listeners how they can get in touch with you if they want to learn more.

10:30.66

Jillian Mama J Love

Totally so as Karen mentioned I have a visual map of white supremacy where I've taken tema tema ooonn's article around white supremacy and provided my own antidotes I've visualized it because part of what I've come. Also learn in this journey is that it's easy to make it a checklist. So let's visualize it if you're interested in seeing that visual There's a link provided for you to to do so and when you do it it you join my newsletter That's where I send all the behind the scenes. Um, and vulnerable shares of what it looks like to dismantle business as usual, um, and lead for justice and joy. So that's the way you can connect I also have um, an asynchronous course called the liberation learning series where folks can. Learn for me in bite-s size videos. The tools that I do that I use for co-designing. Um and I really believe it's the it's the anchor I now have all of my clients go through so that we're on the same page. Um, and we really get to practice those tools together instead of. Learning about them in a one-time training. So those are the ways.

11:50.64

kitedart

Fantastic! Great sorry um, wonderful. Well Mama J thank you for showing up. So authentically so vulnerableably so holy you It's been an absolute pleasure to talk with you today. I look forward to our future co-conspiring and I wish you well.

12:12.92

Jillian Mama J Love

Thank you same wish the best and again this is just the beginning of of a beautiful conversation. So thank you Karen and um, be well in lovelution as I like to say yeah.