Culture Influencing, Values, and Scaling with Deneisha Thompson, Founder of 4 Impact Consulting

00:00.00

kitedart

Hello everyone and welcome to today's session of Now & Center. I'm really excited for this conversation today. I have Deneisha Thompson with me. Welcome Deneisha. I'm happy to have you here.

00:11.76

Deneisha Thompson

Thank you. I'm really happy to be here with you Karen.

00:18.86

kitedart

I'll just call out that Deneisha and I met um I feel like this keeps happening where I'm giving a shout out to consultants for good because we met through consultants for good I Just I think that that community and the people in it and the work they're doing are really Amazing. So. We've had the pleasure of having several conversations around just the work we're doing and I'm really inspired I'm inspired by what you're doing Deneisha and I'm inspired by the way you do it and and I just want to call that out up front. Um Deneisha is the founder of a company called 4 Impact Consulting. So if you don't mind. Why did you just share a little bit about about your company with us.

00:54.33

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, sure. So as you mentioned I am the founder of 4 Impact Consulting. Um, we are a social impact firm that does culture influencing org development. Um, that's really centered on four pillars. Um, we think about. Leadership. We think about professional development and training for teens. We do strategic planning and then we work on communication and kind of conflict resolution issues and our real goal is to ensure that nonprofit teams have what they need to work better together. Um, I you know as someone who has worked in the nonprofit sector for wow Almost two decades now and has worked at every level of the nonprofit from a case manager to program director to chair of board I can tell you that the nonprofit sector has a lot of room for growth.

01:49.11

kitedart

Yeah.

01:50.33

Deneisha Thompson

Um, and often is in a position where they are perpetuating some of the ills that they are. You know, simultaneously working to dismantle and so um I believe that strong nonprofit teams that are able to achieve. Real impact for the communities that they're seeking to work with and on Behalf of is possible. Um, but it doesn't happen by itself and a lot of that is tied to culture and so that's why I say culture influencing because we want to make sure that nonprofits build really strong cultures. Um, where their teams believe in the work feel accountable to each other and really just go about doing meaningful work on a day-to-day basis for their clients.

02:34.90

kitedart

Yeah I love that I I I'd love to plot a couple things like None is that I I really appreciate. You know, just the acknowledgement and I think that this is becoming more and more apparent to folks. Um is just the nature of maybe not. Nature but the way a lot of nonprofit work has been done is reinforcing systems of oppression reinforcing things that supposedly right? this whole this whole idea that nonprofits are for good means that they're automatically doing things doing. Good so to speak and doing things in a way that is okay and that that isn't true. Um, so so one I just appreciate that. Also I appreciate the four pillars that you have because to your point I think that. You know it needs. There's it's not just like oh we can have this sound strategic plan that's in alignment with our values and that's enough if our internal communication and relationships don't aren't in alignment with that right? and even I did some conflict resolution work. Um in college and after college and I think that's. Such an important area. Um, and it's kind of funny because I almost don't feel like I hear about it as much as I did in the 90 s and maybe it's just because I was really focusing on that. But it's really important.

03:52.60

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, absolutely and I think what ends up happening at nonprofits is exactly what you said they want to work on None part of it. But None part's not enough you know I always say nonprofits have made up of well-intentioned people who are super passionate about an issue. But are also very human and are often really closely connected to some of the kind of social issues that they're trying to help right? and my partner talks about nonprofits being similar to plantations and I think it's actually really true. Where. Um, oftentimes you have the people who look like the people in canut particularly service nonprofits in urban areas where we have a lot of like entry level middle level senior level staffers who are people of color or people who represent the community that they're working in. And then you have a lot of seating or management and board members who do not share those same lived experiences as the people who are on the staff and then it becomes like we pick one or 2 people we tokenize them and elevate them into leadership and really their job becomes to keep control of everyone else, right? like to to.

05:03.41

kitedart

Um, yeah, yeah.

05:06.84

Deneisha Thompson

To to crack the whip you know for lack of a better term for everybody else in the organization and so what we find is that um and nonprofits don't pay. Well let's be real very few people unless you are in ah in a um, ah c-suite or you know senior position or. Getting paid in a way that they're not worried about money and so for example, when I worked in a nonprofit as a case manager there were many times where by the time I and I lived in New York City at the time by the time I paid my bills. Um I've had very little left if any just to live.

05:35.75

kitedart

1 um.

05:44.49

Deneisha Thompson

Right? And so here I am at a nonprofit living in the community that I work in um, working really hard every single day and then also just being a check or None away. From being in a really tough position and I've been lucky that I have a very strong village and a very supportive family but there are none of people who do not have that luxury and so what ends up happening is that you know people sit around the table and we know what the issues are but we don't say anything because there's fear. There's fear of repercussions. There's fear of losing your job There's fear of not belonging. Um, there's fear of retaliation and so oftentimes it becomes a very oppressive and toxic environment not necessarily for the leadership. But for everyone else. Um and those are the same people who then on a day-to-day basis need to go out into communities and connect with community members and do great work.

06:24.64

kitedart

Nerve.

06:34.36

Deneisha Thompson

And so I think it's really important and it's one of the reasons why leadership comes none? um because I believe the tale follows the head right? like and it might not follow direct in a straight line but it won't be going in the opposite direction in and the leadership's going in another way. So I really believe that nonprofit leaders. Um need the tools and the support. As well in the training as well to be able to better lead manage and supervise their teams and I will just note those 3 things are different things like leadership management supervision are often interchanged and they're not the same thing and so my work is really around China.

07:01.91

kitedart

Yeah.

07:08.26

kitedart

Um, yeah.

07:12.65

Deneisha Thompson

Make Sure that leaders understand the differences between those um and then we build capacity. So It's It's one of those things where every time you need something you shouldn't have to call a consultant oftentimes you do that because you don't actually trust the people who work at the nonprofit and so what I find is I'll go in. Do an org assessment talk to the staff and then write a report and everyone's like oh we've known this and it's like yes, but you were not the credible messenger for your leadership and so we try to rightsize some of that in the work and help leaders to see the talent the knowledge um that exists within their staff. And really try to create systems where decisions can happen conversations can happen and then when harm happens as it will because we are humans that we have kind of some some capacity to manage that so that it does not impact our ability to meet our mission. And so that's really why culture is at the heart of the work that I do.

08:06.97

kitedart

Yeah I think that's so important so important. Um, and and I think that you know you started that off with talking about that nonprofits are filled with good. You know well-intentioned people you know, but there is we're all humans and we all live in a. An oppressive system. We all live in a hierarchical system a system with numerous kinds of structural oppression and so not only when you look at the hierarchy and the power dynamics within the organization that that does represent. What we've had historically and there's internalized oppression as well and so it's a lot to I think culture shifting is so big. There's so much to it and and I think so often nonprofits are so focused like you said on. Um, kind of None piece because they're focused on that work that they're doing out in the world to change things but that what's happening internally if it's going completely against that like it's just such a like. Ah.

09:17.16

Deneisha Thompson

Exactly That's exactly it. So like it's the the plight of nonprofits are often worried about external conditions right? external things that are impacting people families individuals. Um and very because we're usually stretched then.

09:21.74

kitedart

Yeah. Um, yeah.

09:35.33

Deneisha Thompson

Um, usually competing for funding usually overextended um don't bank time or don't feel that there is time to do real reflection and to really think about what are we doing internally. Um, how do our values and the things we say.

09:37.65

kitedart

Yeah.

09:44.40

kitedart

Yeah.

09:54.15

Deneisha Thompson

To the public. How's that actually happening internally and so forth I'll give you a good example. So you know there are None of nonprofits that do work around organizing and the central kind of tenet of organizing is sharing and building power and I cannot tell you how many.

10:08.16

kitedart

Yes.

10:12.24

Deneisha Thompson

Organizing nonprofits I have done work with where they are doing None of work in communities around building and sharing power and have 0 capacity to do that internally in their organization right? So it's like who we say we are versus what we're.

10:20.78

kitedart

Yes, yes.

10:29.10

Deneisha Thompson

Doing and who we really are and like how do we bridge that gap right? because we cannot be in community saying we want to organize we want to shift power share power bill power and then internally there's no mechanism.

10:32.85

kitedart

Yeah.

10:41.45

kitedart

Yeah, yeah.

10:44.71

Deneisha Thompson

For feedback and for people to share because of the power dynamics that exist crazy.

10:46.28

kitedart

Yeah, the total hold and tight. Yeah, well and you know I'll I'll say that this is None thing that I talk about with my clients because I work more with forprofit companies than nonprofit companies. But it's like it's None thing that we talk about all the time is that there's been such a. Ah, focus on values driven right? and that nonprofits are driven by values and and companies are trying to be driven by values but that values so often do end up looking like um what we're talking about externally. They might be some nice pretty words up on a wall but that internally living those values is not happening and and and sometimes the things I think I think we're told that we need to like value everything and that. That can be super overwhelming and make it hard to live out those values because we're trying to like have them all be important I think values can also be reactive right? It they can be like this thing is threatened and so I'm elevating. This as one of my top values but you know here at kit and dart. We talk about source commitments and that source commitments gets at this level of like a deeper level of why our values are what they are and it's more about a like it's Affirming. And a commitment to how we are being how we are showing up in the world. How we are operating our businesses our nonprofits our schools our you know, governments, etc, etc like that that if we could get to this place where everybody is. Having the world. They're committed to creating externally be what's happening internally what we're living internally what we're what we're creating internally that that can move the needle externally more. Then giving lip service to some values but not doing it internally like I think the internal is more important. We can't get there externally.

13:02.00

Deneisha Thompson

Absolutely and you know you said the word living several times and that's exactly it right I share with um groups that I work with organizations that I work with that values are and you know this is my own science. So I will say that values aren't adjectives. They're verbs.

13:19.74

kitedart

Yes, yes.

13:21.82

Deneisha Thompson

Right? Like they are. They are not adjectives and so if if you declare a value. What one of the questions I asked is well. How do we embody that value and when we say embodiment it means like the living of it. How is it demonstrated Can someone else see how you operate.

13:41.19

kitedart

Fn.

13:41.38

Deneisha Thompson

And say this is the value right? like and so unless there are ways that and I and I also think like you can't expect people to figure it out. Um another activity that I do with organizations all the time is we create ah organizational glossary. Um, and we call it like our lingo like what is the internal lingo that we use because.

13:55.74

kitedart

As.

14:00.34

Deneisha Thompson

We can be saying the same word but not speaking the same language right? and so oftentimes. Um I'll use like the word love. For example, we all know what it is. But if you ask 10 people to define love you'll get 10 different definitions and so because of that.

14:02.36

kitedart

Ah.

14:16.91

Deneisha Thompson

Um, oftentimes we use words in organizations but particularly words around values. But what that means to each individual in the organization is really different and so to expect people to just figure it out because I said we value equity. Well what does that mean and what does that look like and how is it present.

14:29.14

kitedart

Um, yes.

14:34.50

Deneisha Thompson

And so unless we make time to have those conversations unless we're very clear with folks about those conversations about those words it will always create some level of confusion or subjectivity and let's be real how you think about things how you approach things is based on your lived experience. It's a combination of the Traumas and. Fears your hopes. Um, and so it's a very individualized thing and that's the issue at a nonprofit organization is that it can't be about the individual. It must be about the collective right? and our collective um push to see something change our collective. Um, what I like to say rowing in the same direction to achieve a specific outcome and like everyone gets to bring their own individual flavor to it I believe in that I think asking people not to do that is oppressive and dehumanizing because we're humans and we all experience a range of emotions. That's that's what it means to be human. But I think not having clarity on what you mean when you talk about your values when you talk about your mission when you think about how do we achieve our vision. Those are the things that can't be left chance. Those are the things you actually need to be really intentional and purposeful about at an organization.

15:46.89

kitedart

Yes, so true I So agree with that. Yeah, we talk I talk about clarity and alignment like and 95% of what I do is clarity in alignment and and I I Absolutely agree with that. As you were talking I was I was also kind of reflecting on I Guess this again kind of just does go back to culture and how not only is not only does our culture have so much. Um, structural oppression. It's it is very dehumanized right? um. It's even it just even it's so it's so focused on production and and like you know, extractive and that kind of thing and and that's one thing I've been this is kind of random but I've been kind of um I recently was exposed to or or learned about human design and I've kind of been. Dabbling and learning about my my personal human design and you know one of the things that I was reading about was how for me I need to go slow to go fast and it's so funny because I'm always pushing that agenda at our business right? and it's like some people you know. In business right? They are like no the the humanity doesn't matter and it's about Production. It's about what do we get done. It's about work harder work more have more outcomes but that slowing down and going slow to get the clarity and alignment to go fast later is. Totally how I operate and not everybody operates that way and not only because of oppressive systems. But because of who they are as people right? and that it really takes a diverse group of people to like. Make sure that these other perspectives are being brought in.

17:37.21

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, and actually like to your point and not picking winners or losers based on personality type right? like some of it is and I actually um, do a lot of work around like assessments in helping people understand their leadership style their learning style their work style because I think that.

17:50.47

kitedart

Yeah.

17:55.90

Deneisha Thompson

Moment of reflection to get to understand yourself and to and to to know yourself well enough to know like how am I showing up. You know these are the things that irritate me. But how do I show up when I show up at my team. What are the things I'm bringing into the situation. Um, that is helping and or hurting. Our ability to work together. Well as a team and to to get to the impact that we want to see and so I think um, a lot of my work and when I talk about like that internal it is reflective right? like everybody on the team has to understand who they are and then we should share that with our colleagues because the thing that gets to me.

18:28.21

kitedart

You have.

18:32.14

Deneisha Thompson

Might not get to you right? And so I think that part of that is like we make it. Um, we shame people for being who they are as opposed to seek understanding and then think about how do we work within those you know, professional boundaries that's something else that I think is really important. How do we set clear professional boundaries. How do we ensure that our team members understand who we are and how to get the best out of us our leaders understand that and it takes time and one it takes like personal reflection and so oftentimes I find people are surprised because we come in and we're gonna do this. You know team building work. And the None instinct is to talk about what someone else is doing and rarely the likes take a moment back and say well who am I how I show Up. What's my personality style and I find that people really appreciate that like at the end of the process and and often people who have worked with each other for years will say things like I never knew that about you.

19:24.80

kitedart

Um, yeah, seriously and.

19:25.50

Deneisha Thompson

Oh well, that's helpful to go right? like you know like both are that those are the transformational moments that happen for teams where they're like oh I wish I knew that I always do that to you I didn't know you didn't like those things right? So some of.

19:32.67

kitedart

Young.

19:40.32

Deneisha Thompson

It is like just creating opportunities to be honest and to have those reflections and it's interesting that you mentioned the design keys um the human design because I did an amazing kind of 3 session thing to learn about my own. Um.

19:42.33

kitedart

And it asks.

19:54.51

Deneisha Thompson

Design keys with an amazing consultant. Um out of Portland her name is mazine trace and she was awesome and what it taught me is that like you know we sometimes run from our shadow side. The things about ourselves that like we don't always love or that you know there's some shame around or.

20:05.80

kitedart

Yes.

20:13.18

Deneisha Thompson

That we've been socialized into believing is not good like having so like taking time for self-care or taking time to actually um, do things to replenish yourself because it's seen as lazy or like selfish right? and we associate all these negative attributes to things that are really good for us and human and normal and so. I Got to learn a little bit about like yeah actually that does make me a little afraid and like these are the things I avoid and these are the things I lean into and I think it's so important you know and some people think it's a little hokey but I think you know every opportunity that I can get to reflect and get a better understanding of who I am. What makes me Tick. What are the things that set me off what are the what are the environments that I need to be in in order to thrive and to bring my bus and to stay motivated like those things are important, not just for me. But for any member of my team right? like if I'm going to show up as a whole person. Um in spite of.

21:04.51

kitedart

Um, yeah.

21:11.25

Deneisha Thompson

Personal trauma in spite of having a life where um, you know where I have been oppressed in spite of the isms that exist when I show up in spite of the difficulties of running a business if I'm going to show up. And like do my thing and actually um, be able to be helpful to others. Um I need to know those things about myself and not run from them and so I do think being able to see yourself in your fullness and not just the positive pieces but also the pieces where you know we gotta be honest, we' all have opportunities for Growth. I Don't use the word weaknesses because I think it makes people reflexively like ah but we all got opportunities for girls and like we should normalize that and talk about it and um, try to find opportunities to work on it. So I Really appreciate you mentioning the you know Design keys.

21:48.19

kitedart

Um, yes, yes.

21:59.48

kitedart

Yeah, well I think even one thing I'd also say too is that um I agree with you like I don't like weaknesses I like to look at it as opportunities for growth and that like. We don't have to forever be striving to be perfect either like there are certain things about me like even just this whole idea of like I'm the kind of person where I if I've got too many things happening I get easily overwhelmed I don't need to change that about myself. It just means I need to know that and be intentional about what I say yes to a no to and I I don't know if it was last year I think it was 2021 i. So ah, maybe that's right I I took a bunch of time to intentionally extract myself from things that I'd said yes to. Because I was like feeling pulled in every different direction which had me feel overwhelmed which then made me be able to not really even focus on my most important. Yes, you know and it was like okay I've got all these yeses I need these are the things I really want to say yes to these are the things I don't want to I they're not fully aligned. They're not my biggest yes I'm going to get myself out of that and then it was amazing. What opened up over here because of it and so I think I completely agree with what you're saying and I also think that we. Some of those things that may be seen as weaknesses or opportunities for growth what becomes available if we also just um, accept them about ourselves and work with them instead of against them because if I tried to constantly be a person who can. Deal with and handle well having None things happening at once I don't I don't know that I'm ever going to win that battle you know and I don't know that I want to like so you know it's like I think that I think that this like dehumanized.

23:56.78

Deneisha Thompson

Right.

24:04.27

kitedart

Nature of how we see work in our world is like like dehumanization and then the strive for perfection is also like it's not.. It's not a weakness. It's just how I'm different and it's okay and I'm going to lean into that. How do I use that to be more effective at the things I Really really want to be effective at so.

24:26.44

Deneisha Thompson

Exactly I think I think that is you know, really sound good advice and even just gave me some learning and something to think about and to your point of you know, calling something an opportunity of growth for growth may not. Be that it might just be That's who you are and that's it and like that's it. So like how do we? How do we?? Um, live with who we are you know like that's what I was thinking as you were speaking is like there are clear opportunities for growth. But also there are things that are just who you are and that is okay.

24:44.40

kitedart

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah.

25:00.47

kitedart

Yeah, yeah.

25:02.54

Deneisha Thompson

And I think um, the more we can tap into that and understand that and then as we're as we work on a team set boundaries that take those things into account the better. We show up the better. We're able to you know to your point around like what's the North star here like what is the thing.

25:18.37

kitedart

Yeah.

25:22.10

Deneisha Thompson

That I am really purpose to driven about thinking about um, it's one of the reasons I you know last year changed the name of my business to for impact because like that is the north star for me. My goal is to help organizations improve their impact for communities. I believe to whom much is given much is required and I think the communities for whom we want to work with and on behalf of cannot wait for us to get our stuff together like get it together. You know period like.

25:50.67

kitedart

Here? period Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

25:58.11

Deneisha Thompson

Get it together right? like they just cannot wait for us to figure that out and so I think it's just really important to um, you know we we we are in a society of abundance I know that the economy is tough and everything. But if we think about historically where we are. I Strongly believe like you know my ancestors did more with less. We need to do more with more we need to do more with more we need to figure that Out. Ah.

26:18.61

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, yeah I love that? Yeah yeah, yeah, so drove so true. Okay, so with that I would love to um I'd love to start talking a little more about business like we kind of are but like I'd love to talk a little more about.

26:36.30

Deneisha Thompson

Are.

26:38.49

kitedart

Your experience. Um, starting this business running this business like just what what have been some of the challenges that you've experienced along the way.

26:44.52

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah I will say so I as I mentioned have a background working in nonprofits. Um, ah and I was like I said so I worked in homeless shelter so homeless services was my background. Um I was a clinician for a while. So I was a psychotherapist. Um. I ran an intensive case management program for people with H Iv and aids I've run supportive housing residences and so I've done a lot of work with mentally ill people chemically addicted. Um folks. Um folks who are trying to stay housed in a very expensive world like that was my background and. I recognize that like a lot of times at those tables exactly what we've been talking about like there were issues that it was just not safe to speak about and we would be talking about it as a staff talking about it kind of on our teens and then we'd get into get at a table um to talk about it kind of with with management.

27:27.69

kitedart

And.

27:40.83

kitedart

The.

27:41.20

Deneisha Thompson

And no one would say anything and I'm like we know what the issue is and then we'd hear like well we're going to hire a consultant and I'd like ah we're hiring a consultant to solve a problem that we don't have a solution for um and so after many years of doing that I really thought about like what again, what do I want to do with my life like.

27:50.71

kitedart

And.

28:00.00

Deneisha Thompson

Why I want to make an impact and I think I'm just like being a hamster on a wheel I'm being tokenized and I'm also perpetuating things and like I really don't believe in that are against my own personal values that are centered on justice and liberation integrity quality like those are my. You know joy those were all the things that I knew that I wanted and so I started this firm on July sixteenth it'll be None ears Um and initially like thank you thank you listen

28:23.90

kitedart

Um, congratulations. That's awesome. Yeah feared.

28:29.16

Deneisha Thompson

There were many times where I was like I got to go get a job right? like it was about always where I thought I would get to None years I'm pinching myself to to know that I've even gotten this far on this journey? Um, but when I started out I kind of just started out as the nonprofit everything consultant so I was doing a lot of training. And professional development for nonprofit teams. Um I was doing some coaching of of middle managers and really talking to them and helping them build their leadership skills. Um, and then I did a lot of partnership development so building collective impact partnerships. Across communities around the country particularly in New York City in Bedsty Brooklyn Brownsville Brooklyn in the South Bronx um in the North Bronx and so did a lot of that kind of in the community hands-on work. Um, and then really realized to what you said earlier I was stretched thin. I was like doing everything straight I was just being pulled in a none directions come train here do strategic play again. Do this here. Do this here. Do this here. Um, and I was a solopreneur so I was working by myself. Um, and just really felt over extended. Um, and then I be and so. I should just know my background. You know I have a master's degree in forensic psychology one in social work I always make jokes now I should have gotten an ah Mba because I'm an entrepreneur at heart I have always had a social impact firm but I had no business education. So I took a leap of faith. My family is super supportive. And they're like if you're if you're gonna do it you better do it now um and so I did and I took that leap of faith and I did it and I am so happy that I did I always say that people pay me to tell the truth now which is just such a luxury to have.

30:12.49

kitedart

No love about yes.

30:14.83

Deneisha Thompson

As a consultant is that you know people want to hear the truth for me even when it's difficult truth to hear um and um, what I realized is having no business education is like I spent the None making lots of mistakes underplaying myself.

30:28.30

kitedart

Yeah.

30:32.10

Deneisha Thompson

Not recognizing my value not protecting my intellectual property not honing in on 1 specific thing and building a portfolio around that not collecting reviews from clients who love me and still stay in contact with me but I never asked for a testimony like all the things that just when you're working by yourself.

30:47.70

kitedart

Yes.

30:51.96

Deneisha Thompson

I'm working on this project and I just don't have time for everything else and so um, about two years ago I joined this black this incubator program for black businesses and that was transformational for me. Um, it's called the Russell Center um here in Atlanta. And where I now live and it was really the none time that I got deep business education right? like and so they use design thinking to rethink your business and so what is the problem you're trying to solve. Who's your customer like all those things and so it was the none time that I actually took a critical look at my business and like sketched it out and what I realized was like I was a little all over the place and so last year um I pivoted and went from being kind of denishia thompson l l c who was doing everything. 4 Impact Consulting that really um, as much as I am part of the brand and like every client that I've gotten to date has been through word of mouth I recognize that I can't scale and like I don't have the capacity to do more unless I have other people on my team and I would try to you know. Work with other consultants and say I'm going to connect you with this client and the client like but I want to work with you like I thought I would get an opportunity to work with you and so I realized that I had to start thinking about how I actually build a business not just build a brand around who I am as a consultant but to build a business that could be sustainable. And so that's how we identified like what we want to do so for impact our everything we do is about making and scaling some kind of community-wide impact mostly a nonprofits but any social good initiative is really arc sweet spot. Um, and then what were our pillars like how do we think we get to impact at a nonprofit. How do we think we get to impact when thinking about social good and it was a combination of everything I've learned over these years right? like again, it starts with leadership. Um, staff need to know what they're doing they need training. They need professional development. They need to continue to grow and learn together sending None person to training and thinking they're going to come back and train. The whole agency is not a realistic goal and so we do team professional development where we give teens an opportunity to learn together. To uncover things together to grow together so that they're getting the same information and that can actually seep into the culture of the org. Um, we are thinking about communication. Do we have opportunities to have tough conversations. Is there a feedback loop.

33:26.79

Deneisha Thompson

Are there opportunities to share and give suggestions and to improve together. Um, when conflict arises. How do we deal with it. Do We have the capacity to manage that and then strategy right? like a strategic plan can't solve everything. But we also need to ensure that people are clear about where is our north Start. What's our goal.. What's our target is this aligned to our mission. How are our values embodied in our work right? like so all of those components are like the 4 things. That I think are really really integral to an organization building the type of team they need so that they can get to impact and again they're all really critical pieces of culture and so that's why it's culture influencing and that's why like I finally feel like hoof I could Breathe. It's taken all this time but like we figured it out. And now we have our north star and I'm building a business I hired a operations manager so employee one is on board I'm currently hiring for other positions because now that we have a way we can bring people in train them in that way and know that it won't um, dilute the brand.

34:32.85

kitedart

Yeah.

34:34.20

Deneisha Thompson

And I think that was my fear is like you know I've spent a lot of time building a reputation building a business. Um and I want anyone who works with me to have a really meaningful transformational experience and that there needs to be consistency in that whether or not someone works with me or works with one of my colleagues and so. That's been a real ride is to kind of systematize all of the learning over the past ten years um and to and to really create a framework and a model for how we do our work and so that's where we are now it has been a huge growth piece of growth and development. Um. And so I am very much working on my business and in my business but feel really grateful. Um, to finally feel that feel like I have my sea legs under me.

35:15.94

kitedart

Yes I Love that and I I think it's just interesting to call out that you know some of the things that you shared about the work that you do with organizations now right that it was like kind of doing all of that work for your own business taking that. Taking the time to take the step back and what are we really committed to here and let's be intentional and let's make sure it's aligned and then let's make sure that we've got you know leadership and and communication and conflict resolution and all of those things internally and how is that going to work internally. And and that that's just going to make you that much more effective in what you do for your clients. So I Love that right? like you kind of.

35:59.54

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, there's so many times where I got called in to do a strategic plan and as part of my strategic planning I usually do a really brief org assessment. We call it a baseline assessment to understand the landscape of where we are right now before we get into goal setting and planning for the future and.

36:11.23

kitedart

Ah, here.

36:18.60

Deneisha Thompson

So many people when I meet with them have very little belief that a strategic plan is gonna help and it's like the leadership really wants it but all the staff are like listen we got real issues here I don't know how we got do this we can You don't and so it's about like you can have a great strategic plan. But if you don't have the culture to support that plan.

36:27.39

kitedart

Um, yes.

36:37.80

Deneisha Thompson

If you don't have the systems in place. Um, and the team that is kind of well enough and aligned and willing to to um, remain motivated and accountable to themselves about how they contribute to moving things forward then your plan will not be successful and.

36:40.27

kitedart

Yeah.

36:55.87

Deneisha Thompson

Oftentimes I get called in and folks will say things like yeah we had a strategic plan but we need to do another one and really trying to understand. Well why didn't that one work instead of just jumping into a new one and and a lot of times. It's because you didn't have the actual internal culture you needed to make that plan successful.

37:09.88

kitedart

Yes, yeah, that's great I'm curious to know. Um so and things for just sharing right? like being in business almost ten years like that's great by the time this airs it will. You'll be 10 years so like yay I think that that's great because there's so many businesses who do fail.

37:20.71

Deneisha Thompson

Wow.

37:28.45

kitedart

Um, and I'm curious to know. Um you know, Thanks for sharing the journey are there are there What? what pieces? Okay, let me start again question but I'm curious if you think about um your. Identities What particular struggles or challenges maybe have you had that are a result of any of your identities that you carry that may have had you know, offered extra roadblocks.

38:00.20

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, so um I am a queer black woman born to 2 immigrant parents from Jamaica who was born and raised in the Bronx and at the time where I live when I lived there. It was the poorest congressional district in the country. Um.

38:16.69

kitedart

Wow.

38:19.54

Deneisha Thompson

And so I feel like everything about me whether it is being a queer woman a black woman. The daughter of immigrants or growing up surrounded by poverty that I have been many pieces of my identity have been under attack and kind of oppressed. Um I have as a kid of immigrants. You know my parents came to this country as adults as nineteen year olds who were seeking a better life who truly believed in the american dream and I always say if you ax them have we achieved it. They would say hell yeah like our daughter reads a company and she's doing great and like our kids have. Are doing well and if you asked me as a black girl born in the Bronx have I achieved the american dream I would say there's no way. There's no way that I have gone to school quote unquote done everything that folks have said you need to do go to school get degrees stay out of trouble. Don't get it like all these things. And then still struggle to manage and maintain and run a business having done it with decades of experience with clients who are there and who can vouch for my work. Um with my intellectual property floating around and still being used years after it was developed. Um. It's just been. You know, really hard. It is hard for women of color to get opportunities when it comes to business because I didn't have ah an Mba a business degree I really was starting from behind um and then I think you know we are in a perpetual cycle of having to. Of ourself having to work harder work smarter um not make mistakes because you don't get the grace that other companies will get just to stay alive and so I just think like the level of stress that trying to be a business owner. You know all entrepreneurs have some level of stress. But I think it was a long time before I thought to myself like I could actually do this right? like I for so many years I worked as if the rug was going to be pulled out from under me and with the deficit mindset and like not being able to let go of clients seeing yes to the wrong projects being overextended.

40:17.71

kitedart

Yeah.

40:32.35

Deneisha Thompson

Because I didn't know when the next thing was gonna come because I was worried the next thing wouldn't come Um, you know, ah being letting letting clients overuse their time and like just so many things not paying myself well because I thought that if I raised my rate to the value of what it was that people would not pay me. Um, and so I Just think it has been um and working by myself for a very long time a speed the solopreneur life can be really isolating and really difficult to feel like you actually have the time to build to not just work work work but to actually build your business.

41:00.69

kitedart

Yes.

41:11.76

Deneisha Thompson

Um, and so I would just say you know I my my story isn't unique to any other queer black woman in America who's trying to run a business right? like there are some really unique challenges that come with that and oftentimes they're connected to access opportunities. And having people of influence being willing to give you the opportunity that they would give other people who don't have your level of qualifications and expertise.

41:37.76

kitedart

Yes, Thank you for sharing all of that and I think I mean I think that that my listeners here will that will resonate so much with them right? and and I feel like that's true like no matter you know any of those marginalized identities oppressed identities and then when you start. You know, putting them together and there's multiple just you know it just gets harder and Harder. Um, more is expected all of that. So I Think that's so true.

42:07.46

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, and again, just the idea of like how many years and we talked about perfection a little while ago that I just did not feel like I could make a mistake so I worked all night weekends round the clock because of the fear that like I would make a mistake and that would.

42:16.15

kitedart

Um, yeah, yeah.

42:24.94

kitedart

Yes.

42:25.30

Deneisha Thompson

Change everything for me right? like and we know that that happens to some people where you make a mistake and your whole life is impacted by that and so I just thought I can't make a mistake I have to be perfect. The level of pressure that you put on yourself trying to achieve perfection which is impossible.

42:33.72

kitedart

Yes.

42:41.61

Deneisha Thompson

Um, you know I'm sure I've taken some time off my life by just not being able to take good care of myself. Um, because of being worried that it wouldn't last and so I'm happy to finally it took 10 years but feel like okay I got this and I'm very confident.

42:50.39

kitedart

Yeah.

42:56.72

kitedart

Yeah.

43:00.80

Deneisha Thompson

About our work and the way we do our work and our values. Um and the value that I have been able to bring to organizations who you know years later say to me Deneisha that retreat we did was transformational. It was a game changer. Um. People saying things like you know you just blew my mind today or like it made me think about how I show up. It made me reevaluate the way I do my work right? like those are the things that say to me. Okay, you got something here and so we very much use the art and science of behavior change and all of our work to really think about what do people need to do the. Best that they can on any given day and so I'm really proud of my work and really finally feel like you know I have something that's unique and special and valuable and so I treat it like that now which is a huge learning curve.

43:35.79

kitedart

Um, yeah.

43:46.21

kitedart

Yeah, good for you good for you? Um, I'm glad that you like stuck with it and and that you've gotten to a place where you're feeling you know. None you're you're working on the business to scale the business to grow the business and you're taking better care of yourself and all of those things I think it's so important and um, yeah I think it's it's. I think that's a really good message because there's so many solopreneurs out there who are struggling to do it alone and be perfect in all of those things. So thank you for sharing that? um I'd love to ah have a short coaching session. We talked about a couple opportunities of things to have a coaching conversation around. So um, if you don't mind I'd love to let you introduce a topic that you'd like to talk about something that you're because it's a business is a forever iterative. Endeavor. So so what are you grappling with right now.

44:45.83

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, yeah, So one of the things I will say to and particularly for your solopreneurs who are listening um that I was scared of in the past was um, not that I was scared of let me we say that that I was hesitant to do. Was to work with other consultants one because like you know money is finite and I also wanted to make sure that my business could be sustainable but then also thinking about um how do I protect my intellectual property I will say that as a young solopreneur I often created.

45:14.60

kitedart

And.

45:22.21

Deneisha Thompson

Um, toolkits powerpoints tools frameworks you know methodologies handbooks and never put my my logo my name on it I slapped the name of my client on it. And now they're using it years later and sometimes I'll even bump into something that I know I created and it has someone else's name on it and you know, ah so that is None thing. It's like really thinking about how do I partner with people and still maintain.

45:43.13

kitedart

Um, and.

45:56.42

Deneisha Thompson

Um, ah or protect my intellectual property right? So that even if someone owns something because it was work for hire and they pay for it that attribution to me is there. Um, you know I share that you know for for centuries. The intellectual property of people of color has been stolen. Um, it vanished. You know we think about the movie's Hidden figures and all the work that black women have done only to have someone else's name beyond it and so one of the things I'm thinking is as much as I want to partner with folks.

46:18.89

kitedart

Um, yeah, yes, yeah.

46:33.12

Deneisha Thompson

I want to continue to share because this information isn't for me. Dissemination is important I also want my work as a way to kind of resist the the taking of intellectual property and to right size some of that brick that cycle think about how do I protect it? um. And also say don't be afraid to work with others I think that's my biggest piece of learning over the past few years is that so many more opportunities opened up. Um I was able to scale my capacity tremendously. Just networking and and building relationships not just meeting someone but taking time to have those conversations and build relationship so that you can build trust and that you can share and kind of co-create things and share them and so I guess my question is like how do you find that balance between being someone who. Wants to work with others maybe feeling overextended. Um but also has to think about as ah particularly as a solopreneur how to protect your intellectual property. Um, because that opens up additional doors for potential clients down the road right? like I think about all my work that's out there that people are using and being impacted by.

47:37.86

kitedart

Yeah.

47:44.40

Deneisha Thompson

But if they ever wanted to get to the original source me and hire me they have no way to do that because I didn't protect my work.

47:48.82

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, no I think that's a great question. Um, and you know I mean honestly I think that in I think protecting your intellectual property is really important right into your point. Um for generations seeing the rights to work be taken. Um. Like that doesn't work right? That doesn't that doesn't fit within the world that you're working to create. So I think protecting It is really important Honestly I would just Recommend. Um I'm I Always recommend that if people do not have experience Expertise. And passion for doing something in business hire it out and so I do think and particularly intellectual property right? You need someone who's trained in the law of that that would be a thing that I would I would hire out I would talk to someone Um I've actually talked to a couple people myself. Um, around art intellectual property and there are kind of different ways to go about it and I'm definitely not the right one to speak to that. But I do know from those conversations. Um that there are different ways to go about it right? and there's trademarks and copyrights and um. A variety of different things and there's different. Um I One of my clients right now is even working to get ah trademark if that's even the right word but it has to do with products right? So So making sure that you're getting yourself covered and and I think that to your point. Dissemination of what you know you want that to go as far and wide as you can because that is going to help make a difference and help you become more well-known so having your name on it having your logo on it and having it protected. I think is really Important. So I honestly and I can introduce you to someone? Um, and so I'm like yes I do that right now because and a lot of times you know in the beginning you don't you don't.

49:39.33

Deneisha Thompson

I Would love that.

49:49.25

kitedart

Know your methodology yet right? You're borrowing from here and there and the other things. But once you get to that point where you do have you've put it together in your own unique way protect. It? Yes, absolutely. And and I feel like um from what I've learned in kind of what we're pursuing that it's not. Expensive as I thought I would be so I think that's also and I could be I mean I can't speak to that far and wide by any means. But yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.

50:14.60

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, that's encouraging though because I think that's so it's a ah thing too like how much is this going to cost so I need a lawyer do I Need what do I need to do? what should I protect versus what is open source and um so thank you for that and I think you right.

50:27.90

kitedart

Yeah, yes I will I will make an introduction for you. So yeah, um and I know there was 1 other piece that you were thinking about. Um so we if you want we can take a few more minutes and we can dive into one more since that was a quickie.

50:32.28

Deneisha Thompson

Thank you.

50:37.89

Deneisha Thompson

And ah sure I will say another thing is and now that now I'm having a moment of vulnerability publicly but I have this very um, irrational. Ah, well maybe it's not irrational because social media is crazy but I have this aversion to I think social media and online stuff and I think the world right now you know I feel young at heart. But ultimately it has changed very much from when I was a young person and even from when I first started my business. And so I've been thinking a lot about how to grow my online and digital presence beyond my website because I think that's what a lot of people use to make to sit to learn to gather information to make decisions about who they want to work with um and I have not spent a lot of time on that. And just would love to think about like what are entry ways to do it and kind of baby step my way into growing an online and digital presence particularly because like I don't even I have social media accounts you can I don't post I don't use them. I.

51:36.99

kitedart

Um, yeah.

51:51.23

Deneisha Thompson

Occasionally will go on and be a warrior and just check things out, but it's really not my love language. Um, and I also know that it's a big job for most people who have like a real you know, sophisticated online presence. They also have someone who's doing that work because it is it takes a lot of time and so I have not done that but I Think. If I did do that it could help my business even more like it could be really transformational for my business and I'm not quite sure how to get started.

52:16.80

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, that's a great question and and I hear that question a lot. Um, so there's a few things one is and I actually learned this um I came to Kitenar as a client back in 182 and this is one of the first lessons I learned when I got here was that you know. In business when we're creating our strategies when we're creating our plans when we're creating our operations and how we do things our marketing our advertising everything alignment is of utmost importance and if we create plans that do not take into account this kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier right? take into account. Who we are as humans and how we operate that we're going to create plans that don't work for us which just becomes an opportunity for us to beat ourselves up and say we're you know oh I failed or I'm not a good business owner or whatever. So like I i've. I probably have an even stronger aversion to social media than what you're sharing here and I for a year literally created plans to implement on social media and the longest I ever lasted was two weeks and some of them never even got started and I beat myself I made myself wrong for it for a year and I came to kit and dart and it was like stop it like you don't have to be on social media. So so I think that one is don't don't implement a plan don't create a plan that you're one not going to want to carry out. Um and that that isn't align to you. Now at the same time I'm not necessarily saying don't be on social media. Um I think a digital presence is important I totally agree with you on that. So I say create a plan that takes into account who you are how you operate like make it be something that you are pulled into doing. Okay, for example for me. Um I don't like social media. Um, so one of the things and I'm I have a big background in education. So None thing that I do to have a presence is workshops and so we do you know, usually None workshop a month or one community event per month. Um, to meet people on that kind of thing. Ah, the other thing I'm doing is this podcast I love talking to people 1 on 1 and like having a deep conversation around cool things that I care about so I have a podcast now I don't edit the podcast because I'm not good at that and it just won't happen I don't I don't. Um, promoted on social media I pay someone to do that. So it's like do do the thing that you like to do that you feel pulled into doing that you're great at and that that allows you to show up how you want to show up in the world and then you can always hire people for the other parts of it that maybe don't meet those strengths.

55:04.84

kitedart

So my question back to you is is like how do you like what style of creating content. Sounds fun to you? What do you love to do? How do you like to connect with people.

55:16.98

Deneisha Thompson

That's such a good question. Um like you I love having conversations with folks. Um I do a lot of training both in person and on Zoom and feel like that's my love language is when I can connect with folks and like learn together and share. Things um I'm quite a writer. So I think you know I don't know if people are still blogging but writing is something that would be probably really appealing to me and I think you're right like the mix of figuring out what that is that I could consistently commit to.

55:42.29

kitedart

Churn.

55:51.66

Deneisha Thompson

And then thinking about who I hire to help me do the other pieces of it would probably be like a really good plan because just I to your point. Um I think that was really illuminating and so thank you for sharing that in your experience with it because like I've tried I'd keep telling folks. They're like oh you're never on social. Like I keep trying I'm failing at it I Just can't get into it and so it's been really hard. But I do think like these types of opportunities to connect directly with folks even like doing a better job of recording and taking pictures when I'm doing training and other things I'm someone who loves quotes and think.

56:15.60

kitedart

Nope.

56:31.17

Deneisha Thompson

That words matter and so like um, ah often think about even like a quote of the day. How do you motivate people. How do you share something that could be meaningful and a reminder to folks who are you know, working on a particular issue at an organization and so sharing. Is something that I think would be really helpful to help things seep in I always say my training is I seek to to provide training that sticks and so anything that can help um, ah provide incentive reminders. Um. Breaking down complex issues and and synthesizing them and like helping folks figure it out is important to me and I like to do that and so I don't know it's a good question I'll have to think about what that looks like um and when I say social media it probably won't be. You know Instagram and Facebook but I think I I could also think about Linkedin because I think it's a great place to have good conversations that are centered around the issues that I'm looking at particularly the 4 pillars and or culture. Um, and so maybe that would be a way is to maybe post a little short. Mini snippets or codes blogs and then try to have a conversation with folks in a forum um, would probably be something that I could keep up for sure.

57:52.69

kitedart

Yeah, yeah I Love that and I think that's important too is that picking picking that lane right? like that you don't have to be on every social media platform. Um, also like you have right? you you brought up a blog you brought up trainings you brought up talking to people and it's like. You don't have to do all of them pick one and get consistent with it and hire out those pieces or get help with the pieces. You don't want to do so even with those quotes I'm like you could even record the things that you do have them transcribed. And then have someone look through them for what's motivating quotes that they can pull out and you can pay someone to do that? Um, but just leave you in this space of being the one who's showing up bringing all this the the wisdom you know. Because you probably don't have time to read throughout transcripts and listen to recordings of things that you've done right? So you know, do it in a way that works for you. Do the pieces that you're great at the more you're in that zone of Genius in your strengths and your passions the bigger impact you're having on the world.

58:45.22

Deneisha Thompson

I Do not.

58:59.99

kitedart

And then hire people to come in and do the pieces that they're good at and which you already know I mean you're already doing that as you're building your team at 4 Impact Consulting. You know so leaning more into that. Um, and and I do think and I think the other thing I'd bring in too is thinking about like do people still blog. Yeah sure people still blog. Are the people that you want to work with going to be reading a blog so thinking about what's going to speak to them. Um, and you know creating it in a format that works for you and then also making sure that there's a format that they're going to want to consume.

59:35.49

Deneisha Thompson

Yeah, thank you for that I think that's actually really good advice and why I'm leaning away from say a Facebook or Instagram because my clients aren't really on there. They're Twitter they're not really doing that. Um.

59:37.46

kitedart

That makes sense.

59:50.85

kitedart

And I'm not sure I don't know if you can hear me but you are frozen on my end and I'm not hearing anything. Oh.

01:00:06.86

kitedart

All right? So Deneisha just to wrap things up I have 2 questions I'd love to ask you real quick kind of rapid fire. The first one is what does being an entrepreneurial activist mean to you.

01:00:58.62

kitedart

I Love that awesome. Um, it's something we talk about at Kite + Dart all the time. So I Just like to ask folks what that means to them. The last thing I'd love to ask you is can you I will I will put the link in the show notes but can you share with us your. Um, the best way for people to get in contact with you or learn more about what you're up to.

01:01:37.16

kitedart

Fabulous Deneisha I So enjoyed our conversation today. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and your story.

01:01:47.87

kitedart

E 2

01:06:09.88

Deneisha Thompson

Ah, it means fighting to so to remain entrepreneur. Um I think it is part of a liberation. You know one of my values is around liberation and I think that um. You know our system is set up to oppress people through production and by being an entrepreneur. Um I really have been able to chart my own course and to make decisions that are aligned with my values and to do work. That's really meaningful and so um. I Have never heard that term before but I think that's what it says to me when I do hear it.

01:07:07.58

Deneisha Thompson

Sure they couldn't email me at hello at http://deneesia.com or visit my website WWWDot denishia DENE I s h a dot com. So it's my first name dot com.

01:07:32.30

Deneisha Thompson

Thank you so much Karen I really appreciate and had great time talking to you today.