Now & Center: Entrepreneurial Voices from the Margin

Embracing Conflict, Investing in Human-Centered Business, and Maintaining Motivation with Rowen Thomas, Founder of Rowen’s Consulting, LLC

July 26, 2022 Episode 15
Now & Center: Entrepreneurial Voices from the Margin
Embracing Conflict, Investing in Human-Centered Business, and Maintaining Motivation with Rowen Thomas, Founder of Rowen’s Consulting, LLC
Show Notes Transcript

Episode Description:  

Karen talks with Rowen Thomas, Founder of Rowen’s Consulting, LLC, about the value of conflict for learning and growing and the need to get more comfortable with conflict.  They discuss the commercialization of justice movements, worker-owned cooperatives, and entering entrepreneurship without access to resources.  They wrap up with a coaching conversation around maintaining the motivation to consistently perform certain tasks within their business.

Links:

Schedule an Exploratory Call with Karen: https://calendly.com/karenbartlett/30min

Learn more about Kite + Dart Group:  www.kiteanddartgroup.com

Register for an upcoming event:  https://www.eventbrite.com/o/the-kite-dart-group-16435043586

Learn more about and connect with Rowen:  https://linktr.ee/mxrowen

Connect with Carin Huebner at Public Good Media:  publicgood.media

Original music credit goes to DJ Ishe:  https://soundcloud.com/ishe


00:00.00

kitedart

Hello everyone and welcome to the Now & Center podcast. I'm super excited about my guest today. This is someone that I just hold dear to my heart. I'm here with Rowen Thomas of Rowen's Consulting, LLC. Welcome Rowen.


00:14.87

Rowen _they_we_

Thank you so much Karen. I'm really excited to be here with you.


00:37.20

kitedart

Yeah I feel like I think we've been trying to get this to happen here for a little while so I'm glad we're here. Yes yes I know there's been a lot. Yeah, as always as always um to kick things.


00:33.95

Rowen _they_we_

Yes, I'm glad we have finally made it to this point. It's very great to be here together.


01:17.00

kitedart

Off why don't um you know I guess I usually kind of talk a little bit about how I know people right? and we gosh I we met through consultants for good and like a subgroup of people who were looking at creating online courses and they feel like that might have been like a year and a half ago or something like I mean maybe late.


01:26.45

Rowen _they_we_

Yes.


01:41.53

Rowen _they_we_

I wouldn't be surprised about the date that you are saying I can I do not I consult my calendar to check on to verify that information. So it sounds it sounds accurate.


01:56.94

kitedart

2020 early twenty one.


02:17.16

kitedart

Yeah, um, spirit.


02:16.77

Rowen _they_we_

I can either confirm or deny that date right now but it definitely sounds reasonable. It's been a surprisingly long time since we None met and it was in a very um, just like a shared interest professionally kind of context of.


02:45.30

kitedart

Um, yeah.


02:50.21

Rowen _they_we_

I Don't think I had known you or interacted with you directly in the group before that meeting but we definitely interacted in that conversation about platforms for educational courses or just any kind of courses online and different things that people had used or wanted to try and. It was just a very supportive conversation and so I remember like leaving with the impression of from both you and like other people in that room just being a really supportive group and people willing to share a lot of knowledge and Um. Empower a lot of people who had similar values in how they approached their work. So.


04:26.20

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, I so agree with that and I feel I yeah I think that was early on when I joined consultants for good so little shout out to Lauren Androsky consultants for good. Absolutely fantastic group of people so we'll just get that little shout out here. Ah.


04:34.79

Rowen _they_we_

Yes, me too. Yes I echo the shout out and it was similar timing for me I'm not sure if I just joined it was pretty quick I couldn't have been more than six months in the group. So yeah, pretty early on.


05:04.92

kitedart

And yeah, yeah, yeah, same and it I It was a really supportive group of people and I remember and so you can choose if you want to when we when we get to you talking about your business here in a minute you can choose if you want to share about. All of the business like you've actually got multiple things going on but I remember just meeting. You know you and your your business partners in your co-auth and um, just being like Wow What those folks are doing particularly with my background in education I'm like I really dig what those people are doing and that's super cool and I think I really need to get to know all these folks. So.


05:31.29

Rowen _they_we_

Success.


06:23.40

kitedart

It's so funny. How? Um,, There's been this weaving together of the different people who were in that group and and like the interactions I've had with everybody. It's been really, really fun and just cool people doing super cool things. So it's It's fun. The way that we've um I Just really appreciate the way that we've kind of reconnected after that and gotten to know each other a lot Better. So.


06:55.29

Rowen _they_we_

Yes, it's been a really fun. It's been really fun to see the braid weave itself of how our pads have crossed and continue to cross. So.


07:32.28

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, Well so kind of with that would you share with us about your business and again I'm gonna let you choose how in depth you want to go on all ah all of them or if you want to just stick with your consulting but definitely share about. Your business. What you do the difference you make for people.


07:59.23

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, so um, like you mentioned in my intro I Run Rowen's consulting lllc and I'm a educational consultant a public speaker a coach. And I tend to work with people or organizations whether that's educators or students or professional groups or community members and I definitely try to work around integrating. Um, the ideas of justice equity diversity and inclusion to sort of tackle a lot of social issues that have some really far-reaching implications and help people have some realizations and maybe be moved to. Um, action and active engagement and even disruption. Ah, and I and I try to I try to approach my work in a way that is um, both. Empathetic but also direct and straightforward and honest and funny and just really compassionate and person-centered and just very. Aware and communicative of the fact that all of this work that I have mentioned that I focus on whether it is happening at a you know corporate company or professional or educational or student level is all. Very personal even if it is connected to these other contexts or places or people like work or school or you know, whatever other aspects of life people are engaging with you know, improving themselves and the world around them and so. I think that speaks a little bit to my business and um, my approach and the difference that I make so hopefully yeah, that's a good start? Yes, please absolutely.


12:30.26

kitedart

Yeah, can I call out None thing that ah that we've talked about if you don't mind and but I just love this about you is this whole like with all of the compassion and empathy and and human centeredness of what you know of. Of how you work and what you bring to the conversation. You also are like and I think you said honest, but like even calling out that you're like you're comfortable with those hard conversations and calling out those things that some people are like let's just kind of pretend like this isn't happening you know or whatever and.


13:23.39

Rowen _they_we_

Yes, it's my favorite.


13:45.74

kitedart

And I really love that. Yeah I love that that's your favorite because there's I mean right? we're we're we're conditioned I think to avoid conflict right? like if we look at maintaining structures oppressive structures right? We are conditioned to.


13:49.49

Rowen _they_we_

Guests.


14:24.50

kitedart

Avoid conflict and not Confront those things head on and I'd love that. That's one of your favorite things at the same time that you're so empathetic and compassionate.


14:25.57

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, absolutely I think those 2 things go hand in hand actually because I think that my ability to be compassionate. Um, you know is really rooted in how I've worked with my empathy I say that? um.


14:49.40

kitedart

Um, yeah.


15:01.49

Rowen _they_we_

As a person who is both an empath and also has struggled with a lot of trauma that has closed myself offer my motions so kind of navigating through those 2 things that have coexisted of you know, healing from and unpacking a lot of my trauma. The impacts that it's had on me and also. Um, like reconnecting and kind of rebuilding this empathic side of me have have definitely led me to a place of knowing and appreciating and even relishing like you said I really enjoy. Um these uncomfortable conversations that like you said often include conflict. And I think that conflict is not only is conflict a wonderful thing that can have really powerful and transformative results for um, you know, hopefully all of the people involved but you know usually at least some of the people involved. Um, but it's also something that is a really wonderful and important and valuable space to occupy itself I think that conflict puts us in an uncomfortable place. Whether we are the person who initiated it or instigated it or received it or just are sort of participating in it because usually usually a very multi o like omnidirectional thing but it's it's a um, you know it's a a.


17:54.20

kitedart

Yeah.


17:52.25

Rowen _they_we_

Emotional and physiological response that is natural for us that we sort of need to spend more time like you mentioned getting comfortable in getting comfortable and occupying because there's so much value to be had in it. There's so much we can learn from conflict and so many opportunities for us to grow. And share what we've learned whether that's about ourselves or our relationships to others our relationships to community I think we have a lot of relationship like and realizations epiphanies about our values and the things we care about and the things that are important to us. And how we can show up in all the spaces in our lives when we have Conflict. So I think it's super important. Yeah, and so that's why I Really love. Um, being there for hard conversations and being able to hold space for people to have those hard hard conversations and be encouraged to have those hard conversations that I think. Um, like you said since we're socially conditioned not to have these conversations. There aren't many contexts that people are genuinely or feel like they're supported even if there are Contexts where they are genuinely supported. There's a lot of times where people still don't feel supported to have those conversations. So.


20:34.16

kitedart

So true. Yeah, so true and and you know speaking from my own experience in being a conflict avoider for a lot of my life. Ah, although it's funny.


20:22.39

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah I relish in that opportunity.


21:10.30

kitedart

As we're talking about this it like reminds me that in college I did a lot of work around conflict resolution. So that's hilarious that like that was like the early ages and like I know I know I'm like huh and then.


21:11.30

Rowen _they_we_

Um, it's interesting What we get drawn to.


21:39.32

kitedart

You know, but then it was also like I was also kind of that one like in most of the schools that I was in who was kind of like what is going on here like instead of just the like just accepted I'm like wait. What's happening like why are we doing this. You know? Um, yeah and I definitely had people who were like.


21:51.19

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yes.


22:15.20

kitedart

You don't have like it's It's not really called tenure in elementary school but the equivalent of tenure you know like and you yeah or yeah, but even like protection in terms of your contract so they were sort of like shut up, you're going to get fired and it was just like.


22:11.10

Rowen _they_we_

Like Clout. Oh yes, Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, Yes, yes, but like you're putting yourself at risk. Yeah, it's really hard, especially when and I mean this is from a.


22:50.84

kitedart

Okay, fine I don't care if I get fired for yeah anyway, but um.


23:02.13

Rowen _they_we_

Ah, not a person who's worked in k through None but who has who currently works with a lot of educators in k through None and has worked with in the past a lot of educators in terms of supporting their professional development too. But from what I know about educational spaces in the united space. Um, any in a k through None context that any kind of showing up for you know maybe whistleblowing is the extreme end of that but you know just calling attention to things that need to be better and that injustices that need to be righted and things that can be solved with the resources at hand if they're just.


24:13.90

kitedart

Yes, yeah.


24:19.37

Rowen _they_we_

Manage differently or people communicate in different ways even when a lot of people commiserate with them when it becomes when someone brings it to light. It's a whole different the scene shifts and it's totally different. How people how other people show up. Um, you know on the stage of. School or the district versus behind closed doors when they're having the conversations of how it's impacting them and so it's It's a very slippery landscape from my to my knowledge and so I can only understand how like emotionally.


25:19.96

kitedart

Yeah.


25:33.55

Rowen _they_we_

Torturous that has to be you know there's I don't know how else to say it that just it's really messed up when you like feel like you can trust people because you're really experiencing the same bullshit for lack of a better word and exploitation and then when someone tries to do something about it.


25:53.50

kitedart

Yeah.


26:10.59

Rowen _they_we_

You're not met with support. You're met with betrayal and you know people just accepting how things are So yeah, we're very conditioned.


26:38.80

kitedart

Yes, so true and and I think it's why I value what you're doing so much because for me and my journey to liberation you know, um. Towards liberation not like I so I don't know that there's an endpoint for that. But um, but in my yeah I don't know I'm mean I feeling pretty liberated these days and I've you know, been leaning in really heavy on this for the past like five or six years but


26:59.85

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah I get you. It's like an at towards it's an actor movement.


27:46.96

kitedart

Like that someone holding space and having empathy right? and that there still is. There's there's empathy and there's acceptance and belonging through all of the things that. Are happening for people individually within organizations groups structures right? like that's a really powerful thing like that's that's been so important for me to feel that support that you're talking about. In order to be able to be with um, being more open and vulnerable and because I'm pretty empathic as well and had really insulated myself. Um, like feeling a lot of emotions but like. Also insulating myself and putting up a lot of walls and barriers. Um that it's it's It's a it's a real journey and I think being a person who holds space for that and is is all about that is a really special thing So I Just want to acknowledge you for that I think it's. So necessary so needed and so acknowledge you for being the one to do it and then also acknowledge that the organizations that you work with who are willing to take that on.


30:19.50

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah I Definitely agree because I think it's they're both I think like long Journeys I'm making that connection as you're saying that. So Thank you for that acknowledgement and and yeah I think that I really appreciate the organizations that are. Willing to start doing the self work and are really committed to showing up and creating a space where their workforce can show up as well in that same way and it's definitely not every workplace and. You know it's easier said than done but it is a really important thing for people to do and for organizations to do and just in terms of like shifting culture in workspaces I think that it's such a.


31:48.66

kitedart

So true.


32:07.31

Rowen _they_we_

Responsible thing to do in that to that goal which I think is something that so many workspaces talk about they talk about culture all the time. It's such a common talking point about what draws people to businesses and keeps them there.


32:28.24

kitedart

So true.


32:40.91

Rowen _they_we_

And what is so important and what are the metrics that people value when they're applying for jobs and culture culture culture is always.


33:09.98

kitedart

Yes, yes, and I think that that there's so Much. There's a lot of performative stuff happening but the people who really are doing that personal work and. Working together as an organization to take that on like that's so that's ah, there's part of me that wants to be like that's really incredible and then there's part of me that's like everybody should be doing this like come on like it's you know, but it's so against the status quo and what.


33:54.51

Rowen _they_we_

Yes.


34:22.88

kitedart

Has been so you know appreciative of it and also like everybody needs to do this.


34:17.26

Rowen _they_we_

Yes, there's a a phrase this is gonna ah, really pinpoint my age range probably when I say this but there's a meme on Facebook phrase. That has become really common. It's specifically about um, like so how men socialize show up in society and sort of like the expectations and how men deliver just generally. In society and sort of like when a man shows up in a different better way. How impressed people are even if it's sort of just the bare minimum. Um, and so the the phrase goes the bar for men is so low. It's in a tavern in hades.


35:52.80

kitedart

Yes.


36:09.76

kitedart

Oh.


35:58.27

Rowen _they_we_

Um, and just you know to really emphasize just you know we are so impressed when someone shows up or an organization shows up in a way that really should be the basic standard but is so far above.


36:38.30

kitedart

Yes.


36:33.23

Rowen _they_we_

The current norm and the current status quo that we're just like oh my God This is amazing when in actuality, it really is just just the basic level of commitment that should be.


36:56.62

kitedart

Yeah, because.


37:03.35

Rowen _they_we_

Everywhere to any organization who says they're committed to these things right? that they're committed to justice and creating a culture that retains marginalized people and that you know contributes to a world that is not exploitative and you know.


37:24.80

kitedart

Um, yeah, um.


37:37.65

Rowen _they_we_

All of those things that so many of these organizations say I am definitely very present to that right now as we're recording this in the middle of pride month about a week into pride month and so it's been very. The onslaught of the corporatization of pride is like at its peak this year it's been and not just pride. It's you know pride has been the one that's super salient to me this week but it's also been I don't know if you heard about walmart.


38:40.76

kitedart

Yes.


38:52.97

Rowen _they_we_

Putting out this ice cream flavor for juneteenth.


39:14.30

kitedart

No oh my gosh. Okay, whoa. Yeah.


39:07.11

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, just look that settle. Ah it was quickly. There was a whole lot of backlash and it was quickly pulled and they apologized and whatever but it was just such a. It's been. But one year two years since it's been made a federal holiday and you know sort of just like the natural shift in our society and culture is to immediately capitalize the holidays and make them into some kind of market space.


40:19.58

kitedart

Yes.


40:33.14

kitedart

Yes.


40:21.33

Rowen _they_we_

Um, even if they are so celebrating or honoring some really somber or important or just you know, integral but not necessarily like I don't know. Yeah, just not in the way they should be treated. But.


41:02.20

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, so true so true I was talking with my daughters actually I think it's probably about a week ago or if you I don't know exactly when it was but about the commercialization capitalization of of pride and.


41:06.69

Rowen _they_we_

But.


41:41.52

kitedart

You know, just the past few years and and I I hadn't heard about the ice cream. But it's yeah it is welcome to capitalism right? Like I mean.


41:46.97

Rowen _they_we_

Exactly.


42:06.58

kitedart

And and I know that that's something we haven't in common too right of like here I am a business coaching consultant and I'm also like how do we dismantle this capitalist society that we have and how do we create something transform different better like. And I and I like money and I like to help my clients get money right through their businesses and like we can do Better. We can do better. Yes, oh.


42:29.29

Rowen _they_we_

Right? Yeah, yes, exactly and I think um, part of the I don't know this is sort of circling back to your None question that ah. That I didn't really talk about so much is that I also am a co-owner of a co-op like you mentioned a little bit of so I am me Mentors cooperative and we're a tutoring and mentoring and curriculum consulting um organization made up of educators.


43:25.48

kitedart

Yeah.


43:38.97

Rowen _they_we_

Um, and so we are a worker cooperative. Ah co-op recognized in the state of Colorado and we have been creating a space that is very educator focused and really. Focus on listening to the needs of the educator and so I think that really speaks to just the conversations we've been having about how people get heard and how they get treated when they're trying to call attention to things that could be changed and should be changed for the better and. Yeah, it's it's super vital to us to be in conversation about things and we really value consensus decision making it's a core part of how we operate as a group and it has um. It's been super important and I think making us all feel like the time and energy and you know financial investments that we've put into the co-op are being used in a way that we find valuable and in in line with our values and it's so important. To be able to build a space that prioritizes that inherently by the nature of the space and is not by the nature of who is in the organization at the at a time right? but that even in the future beyond. You know me or the rest of us in the organization that the space is there to be crafted by the people who occupy it and that it is for them and buy them and um is a workspace that is ethical to them and honoring them. So I think it really ties in with the other business that I run.


47:19.94

kitedart

Yes, yeah, yeah I Love I Do I do so appreciate. Um, the work that y'all are doing at I am me mentors and and you know the the work that you do for youth and the.


47:14.37

Rowen _they_we_

So.


47:55.94

kitedart

Work that you do for being an example for what a business can look like right and you know that I'm I'm I'm really digging this whole worker owner co-op thing and have had you know we've we've been talking about it over here at Kitit and dart and looking At. You know if that's the right structure for us as well and and I've actually worked with some co-ops too. Ah a housing co-op and I'm like I think there's another one and I can't think of what it is But Regardless I I think that. It's a great example of what I call entrepreneurial Activism right? where it's like not only are we making a difference for the world through the work that our company does but we're making a difference for the world by doing business in a different way and that.


48:56.17

Rowen _they_we_

And.


49:40.98

kitedart

There is such an opportunity I think for entrepreneurs in small business to create a cultural shift in both of those lanes and so I Really really appreciate and I've seen the way you operate at Iami Mentors and it's really cool to see that consensus And. Building this true true culture that is empowering and valuing and yeah, it's I Love it. It's inspiring.


50:24.71

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, it's been Ah, um, both not just the co-op but all both of my businesses all of the professional aspects of my life and personal aspects of my life I think recently I've been considering. The topic of sacrifice a lot because just you know thinking about consensuss decision making and worker cooperatives and how much I value those spaces and then also like to be fully transparent about just the creation of those spaces and.


51:19.90

kitedart

Um, famous.


51:38.47

Rowen _they_we_

Um, you know I think a huge part of it is attributable to how the current capitalistic system makes it very inaccessible to do things in a different model in a different way and so the the system and the resources that are there to support. Small business owners are not positioned or directed towards the building of Worker cooperatives because that inherently redistributes the power in organizations and you know demotivates this exploitative hierarchical practice of business and encourages. Organizations to work with each other for Mutual benefit and to see things in just a really different way and not just how they operate internally within their organization. But how they operate with clients in their community and it really shifts things and um and so I think that but at the same time because of that. Because of that context that we are in you know, economically socially. It can be really challenging to create those spaces. It is really time Consuming. It is really energy consuming. There is so much. Equity that goes into the formation of these spaces because we're building infrastructure and we're building ways of discourse that have not really been able to exist and flourish with that much extensiveness you know at any time in our history history in our country's history at least I think there's. Um, something that we can say a little bit more broadly but we're not going and going to get into that level of Nuance and history. But anyways, right, we haven't really been able to see it Flourish extensively. Um, anytime recently in Capitalism in particular, um, and and so I think this idea of sacrifice.


55:08.62

kitedart

Yes.


55:18.97

Rowen _they_we_

Really has been very salient to me lately and it's connected to this because I think you know creating a worker a cooperative for educators has been super empowering and wonderful and also it has taken a long time to build and it takes a long time for us to do consensus decision making and also balance our. Day-to-day operations and and showing up as educators just in our educational spaces and all of that and and so I think um, you know that concept of sacrifice is really important in how this work show up shows up in every aspect of our lives Whether that's. Professionally or personally or in our hobbies or just in our communities in general and so I think this idea of coalition building and liberation and Mutual support are all super valuable and they're also should be really grouped with. Sacrifice because I think that there's something to be said about the reality of the context that we're in right now and what we have to do to change it and what that requires of us collectively and and thus individually and so I think that um. You know it doesn't mean sacrificing beyond your means. Um or to the point of your own you know, exploitation or a harm. But as a community I think it means that we have to figure out where our priorities lie and how we show up. Differently than we have been or are currently so we can shift things more radically Beyond just our small communities of people like C Four G and you know people who are really vocal about how treating people.


58:41.34

kitedart

Yes.


58:56.91

Rowen _they_we_

In a respectful and valuable way that centers human Dignity should be a concept that shows up in all aspects of our life which fundamentally is what it is right? Just that's what it is.


59:26.16

kitedart

Yes, yes, that's such a good point Rowan. Yes, oh my gosh of course. Yeah this whole like there's personal life and professional life I'm like that's always a joke. It's like no, it's it's all life. It's all it's all intertwined and.


59:35.90

Rowen _they_we_

Such a y life. Yes.


01:00:01.82

kitedart

I really I really appreciate. You know what? you're bringing up there about sacrifice and it's interesting as you were sharing that Rowan I'm thinking like I I see this point of sacrifice I also it's like an investment too right? and you know it's it's investing.


01:00:14.19

Rowen _they_we_

Yes.


01:00:39.90

kitedart

Time and energy into humanizing the way we do things which does take a lot more time and energy and and and we live in this society that is so built around production and so it it I.


01:00:31.87

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yes.


01:01:15.96

kitedart

Appreciate What you're saying about how that does end up being like a sacrifice in terms of maybe you could be out there making more money but you're taking the time and energy to do things in a way that centers humanity and is liberating and transformative versus. Um, extractive exploitative etc. So um, yeah I think it's so true I mean ah and and to your point I Guess it's just a matter of every individual has to come up with their own balance of their commitment to that versus.


01:02:09.23

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yeah.


01:02:33.92

kitedart

I Got to pay the bills and keep the lights on and food on the table. Yeah.


01:02:19.35

Rowen _they_we_

Support my family and exactly exactly I think like ah I think 1 example that comes to mind and this I'm very ah ready for this to land as a controversial example. So I'll just throw that out there.


01:03:10.46

kitedart

I Love it. Bring it. Let's do it.


01:02:57.29

Rowen _they_we_

Ah, but you know let's let's engage about it. Um, oh and also I think well before I get into that. Um, let me write this example Down. So I don't um, forget ah, but before I get into that. I was going to say I appreciate that you put sacrifice in quotes because I think that a big part of why that language probably isn't landing ideally or with enough Nuance is because it has a really negative connotation I think for us.


01:04:17.44

kitedart

Um, yeah.


01:04:07.55

Rowen _they_we_

Um, in general. But also when we're talking about sort of this you know identity and sociological perspective of um, our country and the world and what that how that impacts us you know, psychologically and economically and and socially in modern times. Um, and I think that because of that sacrifice has this really negative connotation and so I think ah, you know, commitment contribution investment like you said you know if someone is making a monetary investment in an organization or business like a startup or something. You know they are sacrificing an amount of money that they could be using for other things in order to put into that business right? And so I think that is absolutely the way that sacrifice is being used and so I appreciate you? um, bringing attention to that because there's a lot of nuance and.


01:05:44.40

kitedart

Yep, yes.


01:05:49.85

Rowen _they_we_

Value ladenness in that particular word that I chose sacrifice. So I thanks for bringing attention to that because I think it adds a lot to what I was trying to say So thank you? So the example oh go ahead? Yeah please.


01:06:23.14

kitedart

Yeah, well no I just say I appreciate that too and and so it's so funny right? How we project right? because I think for me sacrifice has a certain trigger for me as a as a woman as a person of color I was.


01:06:30.73

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yes for sure.


01:07:01.16

kitedart

I Feel like I was conditioned in such a way that my worth came from serving others and while I love to serve others. It was I had to sacrifice myself to do that and so I've had so much unlearning and relearning to.


01:07:04.30

Rowen _they_we_

Yes, yes.


01:07:39.68

kitedart

Not sacrifice myself and you know that I wore that as a badge of honor right of um, being a teacher and being a mom and being like and I'm going to help everyone else. Yeah and that that.


01:07:33.55

Rowen _they_we_

The.


01:07:45.49

Rowen _they_we_

And a helper profession and yeah, exactly.


01:08:13.48

kitedart

Always came at the sacrifice of myself. Not always but a lot. So it's like that's my own little internalized thing. Ah, um so I pretty I mean oh yeah, totally.


01:08:00.61

Rowen _they_we_

I think Spence. but yeah overall yeah but I think it's also way widespread I don't think that's a. And don't think that's just you so I think that's a very probably common experience which is why I appreciate you naming that because I think it's very accurate to how a lot of people have navigated that word and what it means and how it shows up for them. What they've been asked to do and yeah, so.


01:09:04.10

kitedart

Yes.


01:09:14.68

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, so both and it's ah yeah.


01:09:05.51

Rowen _they_we_

I Yes, exactly exactly both and for sure I think um I think the idea of sacrifice also is sort of like the idea of rights that some people conceptualize of sort of rights extend to the. Point that they in to just be just shy of to the point where they infringe upon other people's rights, you know? and so I think right with Sacrifice. It's to the point your sacrifice for other people. The ubiquitous you I think should not extend Beyond how much it.


01:10:08.62

kitedart

Yes.


01:10:19.39

Rowen _they_we_

You know extend Beyond the point that it infringes upon you right that at the expense of you and so I think that that absolutely is a very hard line that should be enforced when talking about sacrifice you and yours your community. So the controversial example that I was thinking of um.


01:10:54.00

kitedart

Um, yeah, yeah out that yes.


01:10:57.89

Rowen _they_we_

Is that so in our country in the united states there folks have a lot of if folks don't know. Um, you know we are a geographically and socially and economically still racially segregated country in terms of. Um, you know neighborhoods and school districts and congressional districts and all kinds of things. Um, and so you know between redlining and gerrymandering and then just you know historical laws and all that that have contributed to this. Um, and so None example of sacrifice that I've heard discussed a lot that I think could be very controversial is for parents especially of white children or children who are perceived as white choosing to move their kids to school districts. Um, that are already predominantly white or that have a lot of access to resources rather than staying in places that are more racially and ethnically as well as economically and class-wise diverse and advocating for resources that they need there that they are more likely to receive. When they advocate for as compared statistically to parents of students of color or students from low ses or low class backgrounds. So that's like a really I think very controversial example right? because the sacrifice you're asking of people is to put themselves in a position where. Their children may have access to different kinds of resources and opportunities. But the impact and the benefit is that you have more power um in order to make social change and impact not only your child but the school and the district that they're in and the community around you. Um, that is different and that does not have that same opportunity or access to resources because of their identities or their geographic location and so I think that's a really specific example that really shows that it's not easy to strike that balance between How do you show up for yourself and your family and yours your community while still showing up for the larger community in the sense of you know fighting for justice and collective liberation. So yeah.


01:15:56.26

kitedart

Yes, such a good one Such a good one and you know me and how like passionate and how much of a love hate I have around education I feel like you and I could go off on that forever and I'm going to refrain.


01:16:05.35

Rowen _they_we_

Oh yes I guess and that's also like an an example that is semi in a bubble because I know like whether when we move that in geographical context and just broadly. There's a lot of other factors to consider for sure.


01:16:50.60

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, but I got that I mean I I think it's a great example of of what we're talking about here and I and I do appreciate that and who there's there's a lot. Um and and maybe that's just a you know consideration.


01:16:41.13

Rowen _they_we_

Ah, so.


01:16:59.47

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yeah.


01:17:26.18

kitedart

I think and and kind of wanting to move this conversation a little bit more businessy quote unquote um I know we're sort of talking about it already with the the co-op and stuff but I do think that it's a really important question for business owners to be considering and chewing on is.


01:17:15.21

Rowen _they_we_

Please let's do it.


01:18:03.20

kitedart

What are you doing as a business owner to invest in transforming our culture on ah on a wider scale I mean it could be it could be for your community. It could be for your clients. It could be for your. You know it could but also collectively because I feel like personally what I'm trying to do in this work is create a grassroots kind of a movement around changing what business looks like and how we do business and bringing in that human element. So I think my question to listeners is like what are. What are you doing? What are you committed to what are you willing to invest and also at the same time holding that tension for understanding that there is a there there can be I'm not going to say there is or has to be there can be a monetary sacrifice. There. Um, I'll also argue that in the long run I also think that investing and doing business in more transformed ways can pay off monetarily because I do think that that. There's a lot of people who are voting with their dollars so to speak so but it's also not necessarily instantaneous right? like and especially because we definitely are up against big business. You know in so many ways. So um I hope though that collectively. Those of us who care about transforming our country um are going to be willing to make some of those investments and that ultimately it doesn't end up being a sacrifice I hope.


01:21:17.95

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, exactly right? I think the I think the parallel to building a worker Cooperative is remarkably similar right? that there's a really high time and financial and otherwise resource commitment in the beginning. And that the the sacrifice is very high and that the Bandwidth required is really large but that over time once the structures are built and people are working in the system that things will level out not only in. Required contribution but also benefit right? and that people like that that people will get to that point the whole goal point of of having resources and support and not having to depend On. Um you know, unreliable aid or support or systems. Um, so to kind of go to answer actually answer your question. What do I do in the course of my work to sort of shake things up or move things forward or what is the difference. Oh yeah, um.


01:23:30.34

kitedart

Um, oh yeah I wasn't necessarily asking you but I love it. Go ahead. Yeah, that's great.


01:23:29.43

Rowen _they_we_

I was thinking about just sort of the discomfort and the perceptions that people have or don't have before or after working with me and I really think that anytime I work with people at so many levels and so many points of their Journeys I Really just hope to. Um, shatter perceptions that they have about things in their life or around them that make them so uncomfortable. Not only in that moment but in any moment coming after that where they interact with that thing that they have no choice but to act right. That their discomfort is so palpable and present and seeps into so many other people around them because they have to talk about it and they have to get it out there whether that's in a personal context or a professional context and and so you know that's that's kind of.


01:25:01.96

kitedart

Ah.


01:25:20.47

Rowen _they_we_

Ah, in a vague way where I can apply it and in all different contexts that I work but really just any time where people can't unsee something and not only can they not and see it but their reaction is so visceral and strong that they can't ignore it and they have to act upon it.


01:25:51.54

kitedart

Next.


01:25:57.23

Rowen _they_we_

Um, so that is really what I hope that I can do and and and how I sort of show up in my own work and what I try to show up in sacrifices making space for people to be pushed to that and knowing that there can be a lot of. Um, not so positive reactions to that. It's not all people are not always excited when you make them super uncomfortable exactly um or that you make them.


01:27:01.34

kitedart

Um, yeah, oh yay, Yeah I feel like so uncomfortable. Yeah yeah.


01:27:05.10

Rowen _they_we_

Um, see something that they didn't or maybe even didn't want to see I think for a lot of us in myself included there have been a lot of things that I have felt like I Really wish I didn't know this you know this is just an awful thing and it is.


01:27:27.20

kitedart

He asked.


01:27:38.45

Rowen _they_we_

True and now I know it and I can't unknow it and I hate it. You know, um, and so I understand that and so I think that for me, it's really just ah even though that can be a really tense or uncomfortable or risky.


01:27:58.42

kitedart

Yes.


01:28:14.25

Rowen _they_we_

You know a situation to put myself in I think it's super important and really at core about what I do So yeah.


01:28:37.56

kitedart

Yes, yes, well and it's funny because I've had that too in my journey where I've done work and been in that place of such discomfort and maybe I don't want to see it. But ultimately I do because I want. Different I want something other than what we have and and I love the empathy that you bring kind of back to the empathy of holding space for that and and not um, like we are so polarized in our society.


01:29:02.51

Rowen _they_we_

Yes.


01:29:33.17

Rowen _they_we_

Oh yeah.


01:29:54.98

kitedart

And that there are in some ways I'm like all about it like I am not interested in just like going to the center at all and and there has to be space for people to see those things and be able to.


01:29:51.89

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yes, exactly.


01:30:33.14

kitedart

Be with it and get to a place of starting to Unravel that and do different and um that if if spaces are always polarized then it's hard for people to get to that place. Um, because they just dig in and you know so it's complicated.


01:30:54.21

Rowen _they_we_

Exactly yeah I think I I I a hundred percent agree with you I think that there's this sort of tension between like I The None thing you said about I don't want to It's not like about having an urge to be in the center right? about sort of combating divisiveness because the center the moderate position that sort of similarly empathizes with both sides and equivocates. Both sides is not where I want to be at all.


01:31:49.66

kitedart

Write.


01:32:15.62

kitedart

Yes, right.


01:32:02.77

Rowen _they_we_

And no thanks. Um, but I Also think that sort of like that when two sides of divisiveness can engage in something that is cooperative or collaborative or coalition Building. And is actually like compromising in a way that is meaningful and resolving Conflicts. We're back to this topic of conflicts of you know, embracing conflict in a way where it's not a ah.


01:33:15.20

kitedart

Conflict. Yeah.


01:33:15.11

Rowen _they_we_

Dog and Pony show and is instead a meaningful discourse of ideas that people are actively engaged in I think that it can be that cooperative that collaborative that coalition building space. But I think that. You know? Yeah, it's It's very divisive right now and people aren't talking to each other with each other they're talking at each other and that that makes the divisiveness really unhelpful you know and that's why it's It's very troubling to.


01:34:16.44

kitedart

Yeah.


01:34:35.36

kitedart

Yeah, yeah.


01:34:32.90

Rowen _they_we_

To have that both end if not wanting that center moderate but still um, you know the devicesness isn't helping. It's not helping us go anywhere. Get anywhere, Get any literally get anything done. Um I Incredibly messy.


01:35:05.82

kitedart

Right? right? Oh very messy, Very messy.


01:35:04.93

Rowen _they_we_

I Know you wanted to talk a little bit too about sort of just like motivation and consistency and sort of just how that's showing up in my business. Yes.


01:35:37.22

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, definitely I would love to hear I was just gonna kind of switch us over to that and thinking about um, just thinking about those challenges as a business owner. So maybe before we dive into what you're grappling with right now. Um is there anything you'd like to say.


01:35:43.95

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yeah.


01:36:16.20

kitedart

Right? This this the whole idea of this podcast is talking to um people who but whose voices have historically been excluded from the business conversation and I think we've already dove into a lot of things right around the work that you do and this topic of the co-op and investment. Versus sacrifice. Um, is there anything that you'd like to share like a little more personally about how being a you know around your identities and how those identities have affected your experience as a business owner.


01:37:07.51

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, um, that's a really wonderful question. Um I think that it has been very challenging in some ways but also very.


01:37:48.87

Rowen _they_we_

Empowering and a lot of other ways to sort of be an entrepreneur and a business owner small business owner while also holding historically marginalized identities I think it's been. Ah, challenge Maybe for obvious reasons for possibly obvious reasons. Um that you know I don't have access to the same kind of resources that a lot of other business owners do and when I say resources. You know for sure I'm meeting financial resources I don't have like family inheritance or wealth that sort of comes through my family but not just that kind of resource but also just like social capital resource and access to. Um, you know, business and government knowledge just you know having an awareness of how systems here work right? And how to operate those systems as a business owner in a way that's strategic right? and and is without necessarily having to go to business school or right doing that.


01:39:55.66

kitedart

Um.


01:39:56.87

Rowen _they_we_

Huge time and investment but just having those resources pass down more connections who you can learn those resources from and so I think that you know those are a couple examples of some resources but just I think resources and access to opportunity is a huge thing. Um, that I have definitely seen other people. Ah you know, have starting businesses around the same time I have you know in different ways in different situations of course, but there's been a lot of things that I'm like wow I just don't have that or i've. Didn't even think that that was a thing that people got or could could do or people that things that other people would do for you or people knowing certain people and types of people. So I think that has been a really huge thing to navigate and sort of you know, not only navigate the ah. Like logistical and practical impacts of that as a business owner but also just like the emotional fallout of that as a person and navigating you know what that does to your psyche and your self-confidence and your sense of worth as a business and a business owner. Um, so I think that that has been really challenging. It also has been really empowering though because you know we talked about None example of this the c for g network consultants for good. That's one really great example of. Um, you know it may not explicitly be identity focusedcus. It's a consultants for good to people who really share a lot of values alignment not necessarily identity alignment but there is a lot of um folks with historically marginalized identities in that group I would even say I don't know the data. So don't quote me on this. But. My interactions have led me to believe that you know maybe a majority if not a large majority of people in that group hold None are multiple marginalized identities and you know that group is is None example but just saw so many other groups that are really focused on empowering. People from None or more specific marginalized identities in the course of their business. So whether that is for you know for women for lgbt folks for bipoc folks for disabled folks I think that just that. Sense of support and passing things forward I think has been a huge huge um, valuable invaluable thing that community has brought.


01:45:13.41

Rowen _they_we_

Only comes with being a person from that marginal from those marginalized identities. So I think that it has been. You know a mixed bag like a lot of things are and I try to focus on and lean into the positives and make space to process and learn from the negatives.


01:46:04.32

kitedart

Yeah I appreciate that so that that definitely parallels my experience to a great extent too right? And it's It's really why I do the work that I do is because weaning in as a business owner.


01:45:51.23

Rowen _they_we_

So.


01:46:40.76

kitedart

With identities that that impact may impact the business that I get right? and but there's been so much empowerment and transfer and transformation personal liberation that I've gotten by by doing this work.


01:46:37.69

Rowen _they_we_

Okay.


01:46:55.85

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah.


01:47:20.54

kitedart

You know for owning businesses it it I think it really can be super transform transformational empowering and liberating So I I appreciate that That's also been your experience even with the other stuff right? that that can impact us quote unquote negatively. So yeah.


01:47:34.83

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.


01:47:58.78

kitedart

Great. Thank you for sharing that? Um, so how about how about what you're grappling with now right? We'll have a we we got deep into the philosophical conversation which was great today and so for quick coaching conversation. Um I mean I think it's the juicy conversation I I could talk with you for 3 hours easy


01:47:50.35

Rowen _they_we_

And. Ah, which gets some of the practical stuff. Yes. Um, like.


01:48:36.84

kitedart

Um I don't know if the listeners could hang in there that long. So um, so so talk a little bit. Yeah this this idea of consistency and focus. Um, can you tell us just a little bit of like what you're grappling with now and we'll dig in on that a little bit.


01:48:50.35

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, so I think for me, it's been um, like I think right now it's been like a combination of. Physical energy right? So recently I was pretty sick for a very long time for a couple of weeks and coming back from that has been an adjustment that I think combined with some very challenging mental health that I've been dealing with. Have made just showing up for my own work my own solo. You know, small business work. really really challenging it's made showing up for you know, even though my business is not myself. It is in some ways you know in many ways when you're a solo business owner. Um, and so it's just made showing up for myself challenging and so by extension it's made showing up for my business challenging and I think that we talked about this earlier before we started the recording of. Um, you know there are certain things that are easier and that we can just show up for them at any time even in the worst of spaces or mindsets or times in our life and they're still enjoyable and rejuvenating. Um and so you know I definitely have those spaces with you know clients or when I'm delivering content or. Having conversations like this with people when I'm just very excited and engaged and enthused and encouraged. But then you know outside of that the stuff that has to keep my business going whether that is sales or marketing those were sort of the pieces that i. Honed in on specifically because I think those are are the most challenging for me. Um, and so you know just moving those things forward while balancing all of those things otherwise in my life and as a human being has been a real challenge lately I think it's been hard to um. Implement the motivation that I have in my head and that I want to get out there. Yeah, hopefully that's a short synopsis I don't know if that got long.


01:53:26.34

kitedart

Yes, yes, no, that's great no that's great that's great I mean um I and I think that what you're experiencing Rowan is if you could show. So.


01:53:38.17

Rowen _they_we_

Um, even yeah.


01:53:54.38

kitedart

A lot you know for a lot of different reasons and you know to your point 1 being sick right? and it's like our system like we haven't been conditioned necessarily to prioritize health and 1 thing that I do know right? We were so I think supposed to record this when you were sick and and I think one great thing is that you were also saying hey.


01:53:57.21

Rowen _they_we_

Yes. Yes.


01:54:31.80

kitedart

I Can't do this and advocating for the space in the time that you needed to get back on your feet and get healthy and so one I just want to call that out is like yes like we all need to be doing that It is super easy to burn out in any work and especially as an entrepreneur so creating that space is.


01:54:46.19

Rowen _they_we_

In her.


01:55:09.50

kitedart

Is really important. Um I think the the thing I'd love to bring forward from what you're sharing is that the things there's there's sounds so it sounds like there's these things that feel hard and heavy and.


01:55:33.30

Rowen _they_we_

I.


01:55:49.52

kitedart

Unmotivating and uninspiring right. Sales marketing admin stuff right? Some of these things over here I know just because I know you that some of those things you've offloaded which is great and you've outsourced which is fantastic, right? So like that's off your plate I think continuing to look for those places in your business where you feel unmotivated. Um, uninspired and you don't want to do it that again. Those are further opportunities for hiring things out. The other thing though. More importantly, that I'd like to bring out is that particularly thinking about sales and marketing right? because.


01:56:26.53

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah.


01:56:46.69

Rowen _they_we_

M.


01:57:05.14

kitedart

Some of those things you can hire out but some of them you need to be involved in because your business is so centered on you, you're selling you. You are your brand and so I think the big encouraging thing I'd say is like how can you create a plan for marketing and sales that allow you to do those things.


01:56:57.51

Rowen _they_we_

Right.


01:57:42.50

kitedart

That you do feel pulled into doing So I know that you like public speaking and you're really great at it. So how can you focus your marketing on public speaking Now there's there's some backend pieces to that of like finding the opportunities and so some of it is looking at like okay which part of it.


01:57:28.10

Rowen _they_we_

Right? exactly.


01:58:20.10

kitedart

Is unmotivating and which part of it. Do you feel pulled into and how can we get you doing more of the things you feel pulled into because that's when you show up as your true self right? Not that not that the unmotivated self isn't the true you but like in terms of.


01:58:09.37

Rowen _they_we_

The.


01:58:25.83

Rowen _they_we_

Yes.


01:58:55.46

kitedart

Being a contribution to people through your business it is when you're working with them and you're talking to people and you're speaking and you're doing these things so teasing out these are the pieces that fuel me and I know I'm being a contribution these are the pieces that.


01:58:42.41

Rowen _they_we_

Um, who.


01:59:34.40

kitedart

Feel bogged down and are there ways to get help and support with the pieces you're bogged down on so that you can you know? So maybe it's hiring someone to research and get you set up for speaking gigs and then you go get to do the speaking and the more that you can be in that.


01:59:26.47

Rowen _they_we_

Right.


01:59:41.70

Rowen _they_we_

Is a.


02:00:09.56

kitedart

Zone of genius or in your gifts the more that raises your energy the more you're making a difference for people and and ideally you're spending 80 to 90% of your time with those things I like to talk to people so guess what I do for one of my marketing things.


01:59:55.57

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yeah.


02:00:17.95

Rowen _they_we_

Right? Exactly exactly.


02:00:32.71

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yes, yes, right? and.


02:00:47.90

kitedart

Have this podcast called Now & Center and I just get to talk to super cool people like I'm so pulled into it the editing I would never do so I pay someone for that So you know I feel like that's part of part of it is continuing to look for. Where are you pulled in and how can you do more of that and the places where you're not doing things is it just because you need help. It's not.. It's not part of your giftedness so you just need help with it.


02:01:31.13

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah.


02:01:59.58

kitedart

I Think the other thing I'd throw in there and then I'll shut up and hear what you have to say but is is that like it kind dart where we say Reluctance is just a reluctance is discernment right? and we and we have this. We've been conditioned to believe that.


02:01:47.23

Rowen _they_we_

Oh no, this is great.


02:02:05.27

Rowen _they_we_

Yes.


02:02:34.18

kitedart

If we're not motivated to do something. There's something wrong with us and we need to change ourselves and as a business owner you don't have to do that you change the business to fit you. So if it's also looking at like okay.


02:02:23.19

Rowen _they_we_

Um, yes, yes, exactly yeah.


02:03:08.92

kitedart

Just getting curious like what is this reluctance here and is it discernment or is it just a like I don't want to do this? Um or I don't want to do this part of it right? and so getting really clear on um on that on on what that.


02:02:57.53

Rowen _they_we_

In her.


02:03:09.97

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah.


02:03:33.27

Rowen _they_we_

Yes.


02:03:48.34

kitedart

Reluctance is telling you and how you can use that for discernment so I'll be quiet and listen to what what you're getting.


02:03:50.81

Rowen _they_we_

You are totally fine I am getting so much out of this and I hope the listeners are too I think the way that it's showing up for me specifically well one I'll say before I say that is I Love the you know phrasing that you'all use a kitened dart that resistance is discernment. I Can't remember if I've shared this phrasing with you I feel like I might have so it might be redundant for you but hopefully the listeners will also appreciate it something that my other coach my public speaking Coach evolve says is that resistance is my ancestor telling me to get out of the way.


02:05:21.92

kitedart

And it will Um, yeah.


02:05:09.39

Rowen _they_we_

Um, right? And so I think we can sometimes become our own roadblocks in that way right of if we're not making a decision to offload it or get some support in that kind of way can really just inhibit us from moving through that thing and and. Getting to the space of Genius that we operate in work more effectively and efficiently and fulfillingly so I Really appreciate that and the way specifically that it's showing up for me that I am applying this right now in my head is you know one of the things. That I when you said oh maybe people can do the research for and you know I had a Jolt and I was like no I can't let people do my research for me and then I thought okay hold on let that go you've. Trained lots of graduate interns to do research and presentations for you and they've done perfectly. Great jobs because you've taught them how to do research effectively and you know that's a thing you can do and it can be fine as long as it's someone you trust who is you know, committed to the work and not only just in a. Um, administrative way but in a content way and you know pay them in a way that is you know, fair and not exploitative and gives them enough money for doing this minimal amount of part-time work things like that and building slide decks that you know take a lot of time out of me and slow me down I think. Yeah, are a lot of things that I can offload to other people and still get things done in a productive and efficient way that can hopefully help me streamline things a little bit more. So Yeah I Really appreciate this and there's some really specific ways that I'm. Thinking about how I can implement this immediately. So yeah, this is great. Thank you.


02:08:52.42

kitedart

Yeah, no, that's great and I and I think that so much of it comes down to um it a little bit around a scaling conversation right? And how that discomfort of scaling can be of that like tension between.


02:09:00.17

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, sure.


02:09:29.14

kitedart

Um, offloading certain pieces so that we can stay in our zone of Genius and ultimately make a bigger impact and hopefully also make more money and that that can be a hard place to be um and just again kind of embracing the messiness of that I think can be really really impactful.


02:09:29.51

Rowen _they_we_

Right? Yeah yes, absolutely. It's not necessarily going to be off the bat perfect and there's going to be some.


02:10:08.82

kitedart

So.


02:10:17.66

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, so thank you for sharing that and and I'll look forward to hearing sort of how that goes for you and how that translates um, can I I have 2 more kind of rapid fire questions to ask.


02:10:09.75

Rowen _they_we_

Adjustment needed for sure.


02:10:21.99

Rowen _they_we_

Naymous.


02:10:28.75

Rowen _they_we_

You know, Likewise Yes, yes, okay, do you owe me the answer and then you're gonna give me the one. Okay sorry sorry sorry I don't know Rapid Fire Works I right.


02:10:56.50

kitedart

You one is what does entrepreneurial activism mean to you? you can yeah go ahead and answer that one and then I'll ask the other one no need.


02:11:06.87

Rowen _they_we_

Um, so entrepreneurial activism to me means that um the focus of the work that you do as an entrepreneur is not focused on the bottom line. Is not focused on money but is focused on people and value and impact and positive ethical change. Yeah was like be succinct be suing to be succinct, but.


02:12:17.56

kitedart

I Love that Damn Thank you? Um, and then I like that's great. Yeah, just the rapid fire thing. Um, and then the last question is just can you share with us rowen the best way I'll put this in the show notes. But the best way for people to connect with you.


02:12:22.41

Rowen _they_we_

But but.


02:12:54.80

kitedart

Um, if they want to learn more or have a chat.


02:12:43.99

Rowen _they_we_

Yes, absolutely so I finally set up my linktree so you can find me at hctpscolonslash last right Linktree Lanktrdoteeslashmix Rowan M X R O W E n and you can find my website there. There's a scheduling link if you want to get on my calendar to talk and maybe if you want me to work with you or your organization you can find my socials there. My Facebook my Instagram my Twitter and yeah, so you can see all the cool things I do there's some. Links to my co-op and other professional things that I'm doing as well. So yeah, check it out when you get a chance.


02:14:28.54

kitedart

Fabulous I totally encourage anybody to check out anything rowen is doing. It's all fabulous Rowan. Thank you so much for being with me here on Now & Center today I really appreciate your time and your your story.


02:14:27.55

Rowen _they_we_

Yeah, absolutely likewise This has been so fantastic. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's been a pleasure and an honor.