Now & Center: Entrepreneurial Voices from the Margin

Empathy and Humanism, Effects of Being a Brown Woman, and Scaling with Dr. Bre Gentile, Founder of Dr. G’s Lab

July 12, 2022 Karen Bartlett Episode 12
Now & Center: Entrepreneurial Voices from the Margin
Empathy and Humanism, Effects of Being a Brown Woman, and Scaling with Dr. Bre Gentile, Founder of Dr. G’s Lab
Show Notes Transcript

Episode Description:  

Karen talks with Dr. Bre Gentile, Founder of Dr. G’s Lab, about the messiness of starting a business and the evolution of a limitless business.  They discuss how to bring more empathy and humanism into how we run our businesses, and the effects of having “so much of what women do… pathologized.”  Lastly, they explore scaling and becoming the owner of your business.

Links:

Schedule an Exploratory Call with Karen: https://calendly.com/karenbartlett/30min

Learn more about Kite + Dart Group:  www.kiteanddartgroup.com

Register for an upcoming event:  https://www.eventbrite.com/o/the-kite-dart-group-16435043586

Learn more about Dr. G’s Lab:  https://www.drgslab.com/

Connect with Bre:  https://www.linkedin.com/in/bregentile/

Connect with Carin Huebner at Public Good Media:  publicgood.media

Original music credit goes to DJ Ishe:  https://soundcloud.com/ishe

00:00.10

kitedart

Hello everybody welcome to the next episode of the Now & Center podcast. I'm so excited about my guest Today. We've been trying to do this for quite some time so you are all in for a real treat. My guest is Bre Gentile and she is the founder of. Dr. G'sLlab. Um I'm going to let her share a little bit more about her story and how we met but um I I have been really honored to be a part of Dr G's journey with her business. So Bre welcome to Now & Center. It's great to have you here.


01:48.34

Dr_ G

Um, thank you I'm so happy to finally be here. It's true. It's true.


01:55.74

kitedart

Yeah I can't It's amazing. How many like conflicts we've had with getting this to happen in reality. So thank you for making it work and sticking with it sticking with me and all of the random things that have been coming up for both of us in the past. However long. Um, so what? I.


02:23.82

Dr_ G

Absolutely yeah.


02:34.86

kitedart

Love to have you do to start off today is just share a little bit about Dr G's lab you know, tell us about your business. The difference you're making and I think you wanted to share a little bit about the story so you can dive in with that as well.


02:55.78

Dr_ G

Yeah, sure so Dr G's lab is a trauma-informed design and research consultancy and I work heavily in the ux in ui space. So essentially what I do is I try to put more empathy in research and design. So if you have your app for example and you're like oh that was such a great experience I hope that it's because a researcher or designer really gave it some thought as to like who you were as a person and what you were experiencing so that they could create such a great app or such a great experience. So. That's essentially what I get to do so I'm changing the world. Um by putting a little bit more human and a little bit more you know genuine compassion and genuine relationship into tech which is a little different so a little disruptive but it's feeling good. It's feeling really good.


04:36.48

kitedart

Now I Love that and I and I think it really underscores the idea right that like we are so heavily reliant on Tech we use it for so many things but it really is a tool and it's meant to be there to support us and to help us. You know, go further or do better. And so coming at it with this lens this humanistic lens like I Just really appreciate that I mean you know shoot I work in in business consulting and it's all about putting the humanity back in that and I feel like we clearly need that in a lot of places. So Thank you for her.


05:23.84

Dr_ G

And has it.


05:43.48

Dr_ G

Totally Yeah absolutely I love doing it.


05:50.60

kitedart

Making that difference for that industry. Yeah, so um, you wanted to share a little bit about um about how you got started and it's so funny because you made some notes and it it started with Glitter Notebook and I was like what.


06:09.80

Dr_ G

Yeah.


06:21.38

Dr_ G

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so um I have to back up a little bit from the glitter Notebook because um I was talking to my friend larsa who at the time we work together and she was like hey you know what I'm thinking.


06:26.98

kitedart

So I will let you tell the Story. Feature.


06:57.72

Dr_ G

But taking this business course from this Karen woman that you talked to me about and I was like yeah I love Karen I had already had like a couple of coaching calls with you and I was already like convinced that like you were going to be like the special sauce to wherever I was in my journey. Which I knew I wasn't like in this place of like I have a business plan and I'm ready to strategize like I had already failed twice at coming up at and my entrepreneurship that way and so this already felt different. So I'd already tooped my horn about you and my friend larsa was then like I think I'm going to do it and I was like. Right? If you do it I'll do it like who doesn't want to start in business with their friend so she started to do it and part of our coursework I think it was not get heard but get clear right? Anyways was it get heard first. Ok.


08:29.26

kitedart

I think it was get heard actually because a lot of the stuff from get clear I had done with each of you on the 1 on one staff. Yeah yeah.


08:45.11

Dr_ G

Separately right? Ok so part of the homework was to get a notebook and I was like I have plenty of notebooks I'm a notebook queen but I needed something very different and specific for this course. So I went to safeway and I just happened to find this glitter pink notebook and it was perfect and that was honestly the start. The whole thing because you asked us to journal and I journaled I set a timer and I would journal every day about my business I would envision things I would have ah meditations around it and like visualize what my business was going to look like what I was going to be doing in three years from now around my business and. That notebook was like a space for me to be limitless like there was no like only have 5 lines or 200 words maximum or something like it was like limitless and so that notebook was the start and then coursework with you guys. So coursework was really. It's it's what you put in and I totally get that and I heard that but it wasn't until I kept filling out the form at the end of the class which was a requirement and the first thing was what's the name of your business and it was a requirement and I was like you know what? I'm going to email them and be like hey can you not make this a requirement because I really don't know but I stuck with the process and I think there were like three weeks like maybe two or three weeks and I was like I don't know I don't know but I had to fill it out and finally I was like all right I'm just going to put something into this and so Dr G's lab came out of this idea that I wanted to be an incubator for people's ideas. And so my first logo was like a broken egg because I was like again just thinking this all through and we kept having these conversations about voice and what you want your like source commitments to be and how you want that to show up and I was like a broken egg that is no source commitment of mine like I need to change this up and so.


12:26.70

kitedart

Here? yeah.


12:31.84

Dr_ G

Can it cause me to go a little bit deeper in some of the places that I was like am not really to really to do logo marketing stuff I'll get there I need to really focus on like a business plan because so many times I had gone for like logo first and then business plan and it failed and I realized that maybe I don't need to do that. But. You guys were making me do this tangentially like it was like think about your voice and also think about your plan and don't lose track of either of them and so I think it was really through the coursework and through the homework that I realized. Not only like do I have a viable like thing but I have a lovable concept and so that's where I was like that's the part that was I was missing this whole time was like do I actually love this like yeah, it's viable. But do I love it. And so this was the first time that I was like all right I have a lovable product. It's my most lovable product and I'm going to roll with it and that's what I did I just kept rolling with it I kept engaging with you guys whether it was with you or with Nate or with you know Kayla I kept going to the different workshops and taking advantage of the free. 30 minute whatnots and it just kept evolving and that's how it's continuing to evolve by having you guys as part of my team.


14:56.48

kitedart

I Love that I love that Well it was an honor and I loved every minute that I have been able to work with you along the journey I You know one thing that as you were telling that story that I was reflecting on.


15:13.32

Dr_ G

Um, yeah.


15:29.22

kitedart

That I think is a really important thing and that I'd love to pull out kind of partly from what you said and partly from just what I know given our relationship. Um, what is that idea? Well first of all I Love the story about the glitter Notebook and just that and and that idea of it just being limitless right of like here's the blank.


15:54.34

Dr_ G

Um, yeah.


16:06.84

kitedart

Late and it is wide open and limitless and I love that because I do think that um I think that that vision and that dreaminess and that thinking big is really fun and necessary in business right? Like we don't have to be limited by what has already happened right? It's a.


16:30.28

Dr_ G

Totally.


16:41.90

Dr_ G

Yeah.


16:46.21

kitedart

It's a really creative imaginative process I think so I think that's super cool. Um I Also want to call out. Um, just how you're talking about that you know before you had kind of focused on oh logo and colors and you know, kind of getting this visual brand and I think it's that's such a common thing. When people are starting out is like I have to I have to have my logo I have to have my colors I have to have my website.. There's spend so much time focusing on that and until you actually take action and go start doing something trying to sell something talking to people about it. It can be really hard to.


17:49.26

Dr_ G

Can can talk yeah to people about it really.


18:03.40

kitedart

To know what it's really gonna be like so much can change as you take that action and unless you're starting like an ecommerce kind of business or something where it literally is gonna be sold online I think that I think that we've been given false hope and false stories around.


18:18.22

Dr_ G

I have.


18:41.82

kitedart

Just build a website and people are going to find you and buy stuff from you and it's like um, it doesn't really work like that unless you have a ton of a ton of money in the bank where you're able to buy ads and or pay for Seo or all those kinds of things. Um.


18:44.90

Dr_ G

Yeah, yeah.


18:58.46

Dr_ G

Um, right right.


19:18.76

kitedart

But still when you have a business. That's so much about the person running the business which is how most of them get started then then those things aren't as important um and and people spend a lot of time and energy and money doing those things and then they have to redo them.


19:37.36

Dr_ G

Yeah, yeah.


19:54.30

Dr_ G

Yeah, yeah, well and and here's the thing too like if you're thinking about doing those things like okay, go ahead, do them because I'm hey I'm a parent I know that if I say like I'll say a thousand times. Don't get married young and my kid's going to be like 18 wanting to get married.


19:58.74

kitedart

Repeatedly. So.


20:28.40

Dr_ G

Right? Like just it's just so if you if you want to you, you need a logo and you need brand coloring and you're convinced like if I just get a website out there. It's going to breathe life into this. Okay, go ahead. However, speaking from somebody who has done both ways I will say that. This time around I used my web page as a landing page for myself of like okay who am I right? like if I need to get a job if I need to get a contract or Whatever. What do I need to put out on my website about who I am in the work that I've done so it really came from a place of marketing myself and creating a brand around me.


21:41.14

kitedart

Wow.


21:44.48

Dr_ G

Rather than creating a website around what my business was which was totally different than the other 2 times I like created a website right? So I was then again digging really deep into those source commitments like what do my colors look like what does my logo look like. Am I being really true to those things and it also gave me a great way to practice some of my PrTS work that I did with you which was like website design is not my thing right? like let me try to outsource that let me see what it's like to have a budget. Let me see what type of people are out there when I come at this of like I can only spend $1000 What can you do to help me. Rather than having somebody say to me, you need this type of website and it's going to cost you this much and if you can't come up with that. You clearly don't care about your business or you need to come at it at a later stage when you have more investor money. Oh yeah, and that sucks like nobody wants to hear that. So I think this time was um.


23:15.74

kitedart

Ah, for.


23:32.88

Dr_ G

Because I heard you in the class say don't spend a lot of money on the website and I haven't touched the website since like even though my business has evolved I have not put another dollar into changing my website or updating my website because nobody really cares about my website unless I'm selling myself. And trying to prove that I'm an expert in what I'm doing but truth be told my work is what sells myself right? So and I can't put that on a website in in a real way. So yeah, follow that advice. But if you got to do it Got to do it and get it out of your system but don't spend loads of money doing it.


24:36.32

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, and that's I think that's the thing is it's a great credibility indicator right? It's a great people want to be able to go stock you online a little bit so having something is great but that to spend a ton of money on it to spend a ton of time on it to think it has to be perfect.


24:44.70

Dr_ G

Please Um, totally.


25:00.54

Dr_ G

And.


25:13.12

kitedart

Think that you have to know exactly what your business is before you do it because it's gonna be in that going and taking action which is kind of the last thing I want to call in because when you and I finished our 1 on one work that we did up front and.


25:14.48

Dr_ G

Right.


25:42.24

kitedart

Before you went into the course you were in this place where you're like okay I've got kind of these different pieces and I don't know exactly how they fit together I know what I care about I Know the difference I want to make in the world I know what I'm good at but like how to put the pieces together and it was really only when you started.


25:47.24

Dr_ G

Right?? um. Yeah.


26:20.46

kitedart

You know, moving into that. That course that you took it was your first course, but it's the second in the series is like ah where you have to start thinking about implementing things and so it's as you start going into that implementation and you take that action. You try things out that you figure out. Yes, this not that.


26:34.16

Dr_ G

Um, totally.


26:53.40

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, skip.


26:56.72

kitedart

And that's where I feel like your business really coalesced um into what you really wanted it to be.


27:07.98

Dr_ G

Absolutely yeah, you got to see the dirtiest part of the whole process like you got to see like my my umc in like 20 characters I Mean. It's really hard that beginning part is so yucky. It's so messy, but it's just like when you bake a cake I mean when you look at the process of it like it's kind of gross when you see the eggs in there with the sugar and the flour and it's not like mixed together and it's all separated and. But then when you start to mix it Together. You're like okay this looks good and maybe you figure out you know a little bit more flour we'll make this not so runny and you work on it right? But everybody I feel like at least as a brown woman I feel like I have been taught you have to have your shit together before you can go out and implement. And I really feel like that's not the case for me the case for me in my life given the body that I've been born in has been billed at why you're why you're going because there's going to be so much information that is either false that you either need to rewrite or that is just. Plain Outright not usable for this situation that you're going to have to work through and get rid of that You can't follow a recipe that you decide prior to getting out there. It might work for other people. But for me as a brown woman. It did not work at all so that was a total challenge that.


29:43.38

kitedart

Yeah.


29:53.80

Dr_ G

You saw me through and the force of implementation was a big part because I think I would have just kind of I would have gone so much slower and I saw some people in my in my cowork who were like and don't know I'm not sure you know and they didn't quite trust me or they didn't trust himself or whatever may have gone on. But I was like I got it I'm going for it I'm taking what Karen says start start doing these things on may thirtieth ok may thirtieth it was and I started doing it right? So yeah, yeah, totally it's a trust thing though. It's a total trusting dad.


30:45.20

kitedart

Now Yeah 2 Yes, yeah now. Okay, This is totally not at all related to business at all. But I'm just going to call myself out right here I Still don't have that darn tree in my backyard. But.


31:18.26

Dr_ G

Ok, so she visit that so everybody's up to speed on the situation Karen and I made a little I made a little agreement apparently that Karen is not keeping up because she said if you start these podcasts on this day I'll I'll plant this tree on that day and I was like ok, cool.


31:27.50

kitedart

Yeah.


31:39.48

kitedart

Man. Um, yes yes I we shopped for trees repeatedly. We went out like 3 times shopping group trees and it didn't happen.


31:53.82

Dr_ G

I went and started my stuff no tree planted for Karen so okay, okay, um.


32:17.84

kitedart

We did. We were going to transplant a different tree like a tree from part of our yard to another part of our yard that didn't happen either. So the the promise is that that tree is happening like June so this year a whole year later I know how that is that. So.


32:26.30

Dr_ G

Um, otave.


32:38.22

Dr_ G

Okay, it'll be an entire year or a whole year later.


32:54.94

kitedart

Good for you that you did what you said you were gonna do and I just had to call myself out on that one so it was probably because I was doing some business thing that I was supposed to do instead but I don't yeah I don't even know I can't even tell you what happened last summer so anyway that's okay, um.


33:01.80

Dr_ G

I Appreciate it. Um, I'm sure you were super busy. There's a good Reason. So.


33:34.42

kitedart

But I do I do really appreciate. Um, just just you sharing and and I I will call out that I love the messiness of starting a business I think that stuff is so fun and helping people like bring it all into focus right? or start mixing it up and.


33:58.88

Dr_ G

Have.


34:07.26

kitedart

Getting in there and getting messy and then like seeing how it takes shape and comes together is super fun I love it. Um I want to call out really quickly to you referenced http://umcnprts so just a little bit of jargon around the kite and dar group.


34:13.17

Dr_ G

He added. Um, yeah.


34:35.76

kitedart

Um, prts just has to do with ah an audit of what you're really great at what you love to do your passions that kind of thing and Umc is sort of like a way that we have people name their superpower around here. So No worry on the Jargon on that. But just for our listeners so that they get what that was. In reference to um and then lastly right, like bringing in the conversation around around identity and how that affects us as business owners like I'd love to dive into that because this is so much of why I have this podcast is that there's.


35:27.86

Dr_ G

Um.


35:43.98

Dr_ G

Get up.


35:53.19

kitedart

There's a lot of people who are like the recipe for business is XY and z and and they're like we have the recipe we have it figured out but like they may have you know class privilege or race privileged or gender privilege or.


36:08.16

Dr_ G

Gap.


36:28.92

kitedart

Socioeconomic privilege or you know 10 of the privileges and those recipes for how it's supposed to work may not work for people without those same privileges for people with different identities for Brown Brown skinned people people women.


36:47.86

Dr_ G

Um.


37:02.70

Dr_ G

Yeah.


37:07.92

kitedart

Um, and and I think that that's really important and and I'll also call out that it's not just about identity either. But it can also just be about what we really care about and if some of the recipe things are things that I am not willing to do because they go against my values.


37:27.52

Dr_ G

Totally.


37:40.82

Dr_ G

6


37:46.40

kitedart

I'm not the kind of person who's going to sacrifice my values and I think there's a lot of us out there with that same thing. So I'm what else like I know you've got some um I guess I'd just love to hear.


37:51.32

Dr_ G

Absolutely.


38:15.82

kitedart

Any more that you have to say around identity and how that's impacted you as a business owner.


38:21.50

Dr_ G

Yeah sure I mean I think for me again like as a brown woman I'm always feeling like there has to be a science to everything that I do because I'm going to go through the rigor of why did you do that and so I'm going to have to always come up with a reason. Almost like a logic model as to why I do things in my life and so that that feeling never really left when starting a business. There was still like there has to be a science to entrepreneurship right? like 5 steps here three months here there's got to be a science. Okay sure there might be a science. But for me, there wasn't. And so doing things like the prts where I was ranking things that I'm good at ranking things that I'm experienced at and ranking things that I prefer to do it still allowed me to say hey I'm not going to do social media and when someone's like why you're crazy. Why would you not do that? Oh well because it's a one on the things I like to do. It's out of 4 the things that I'm experienced at doing and it's one 2 of the things that I actually prefer to do so I'm going to outsource that and then someone can be like okay yeah, that makes sense so I still have this need to like explain why I'm doing something but I was willing to be like I'm going to do that a different way this time.


40:38.20

kitedart

1


40:51.74

Dr_ G

I'm going to create my own science this time so that I don't have to say I did my market research right? like you have to start your business plan by going backwards and seeing what's been done. Hell no I don't want to do that. Okay I'll do market research. But what I'm going to do is I'm going to say who's doing this already who's already in this space. Let me talk to them. Let me have relationships with them so I can understand how we are together on this how we are aligned on this and then I'm going to collaborate with them I didn't go out and find my competitors There's really no competitors is how I've been going about this because we're all so unique. That even if I go to chevron versus shell like I like the the logo of shell better like that makes them unique I will do that just because of the logo not because of any other reason could shell predict that no like so we're all humans at the end of the day but we want to put these like numbers on stuff and so. I was really just really focused on like okay Bree if you are going to have to put some sort of logic behind this so that you can explain to the world. Why you're doing something at least do it with some amount of like empathy and humanism behind it right of like not just um. A kpi or not just a revenue number but it's like an emotional number like I don't like doing it I don't prefer doing it and I'm not good at it. Why would I spend money and time on it and then the white world for lack of better like calling it. But then they get it and they understand it and they'll listen to you.


43:49.52

kitedart

Um, yeah.


43:59.76

Dr_ G

And oh my goodness they might actually say hey I'm kind of interested in it. Let's partner right? but until you can get to that conversation. It's still a very private thing that I keep to myself I don't go out and say I started a business What I say is.


44:21.30

kitedart

Yeah, yeah.


44:36.20

Dr_ G

I created my own consultancy and I'm I'm moving into creating my own firm and I leave it at that because there's this, there's still a very protective piece that I have around this until I've reached a certain number. I Think it's a revenue number for me and it might be a different thing for somebody else. But for me, it's a revenue number I'm still pretty protective of it and I I do go through my own personal therapy around it and I I you know, kind of do bring it up.


45:24.46

kitedart

Ah.


45:38.54

Dr_ G

But it's an interesting thing. You know as a brown woman you have to really when you're going into your own Business. You have to deconstruct so much and there's a lot of energy that that requires to deconstruct stuff and you need ah a community and if you don't have a community. Of other brown women knocking down stuff and deconstructing stuff. It gets super lonely and you feel like you're taking on something like the whole world right? And so I think having people of color in my cohort. Having mate in a class calling out like hey I'm white boy privilege right now. So You tell me you tell me if this is right? You know having an opportunity to actually build a business Why you're deconstructing stuff and why other people around you are like wait. With that. That's still around that's still bothering you. We still haven't deconstructed that as a society. Ok yeah, let me help you that was huge for me I I could have gotten all the business help all the strategy help. But if I didn't have the support of somebody else in a whole other group of people saying? Yeah no, That's that's whack. Or that's not true and you got to look at that bri and you got to really challenge yourself to look at that because that's actually just plain outright. Not true if I wouldn't have had that I would have gotten nearly as far as I have not even close. Yeah.


48:19.48

kitedart

Yeah, it's I'm might I'm just like it's like the mirror over here I'm like yeah me too me too. Yeah and and I think that that is um to me it really comes back to that humanism right.


48:34.40

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, yeah.


48:54.10

Dr_ G

Yeah.


48:59.36

kitedart

Of business isn't just this external thing. It isn't just this transactional thing. It isn't just this. It isn't just this thing about how many sales you have that. There's so much more going on. Um.


49:16.26

Dr_ G

Yes. Right? give.


49:37.29

kitedart

Particularly when you have identities that have been marginalized or historically excluded or you know, um, and and it is interesting. It's it's been. You were talking earlier about how like how you.


49:52.52

Dr_ G

Maha.


50:12.20

kitedart

Feel kind of this. You didn't use these words but like this need to justify or this you know like I need to justify where I'm coming from and why I'm coming from it and that's been That's been a really big part of the work for myself of like and and how like so values and source commitments have been So um.


50:16.26

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, no.


50:51.50

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, um, totally.


50:53.56

kitedart

Impactful for me is that it's because that's what I care about this is what I care about and this is the difference I'm committed to seeing in the world and that's my why and so that's my justification. Um, it doesn't mean it's always easy right? It it doesn't because well I mean.


51:14.30

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, yeah.


51:32.20

kitedart

I'm still not on social media I promised kayla yesterday I'd put the podcast we're we're launching next week and I just ah and I'm like I got to put my she's Li like she's like I'll put it on Facebook you go put it on Linkedin and I'm just like ah.


51:43.24

Dr_ G

I Promise I.


52:03.78

Dr_ G

Um, ah yeah, yep.


52:09.98

kitedart

And don't want to do that You know so it still hasn't happened and you know and I'll do it. But I've I've been working on another part of it talk about low Peerer Ts There have been a few things along this journey with the podcast I've hired out the stuff I knew I was not gonna be good at or was not gonna do, but there were a few pieces that I was like oh I got that and then I'm like.


52:37.60

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, yeah, redo the PrTS yeah yeah


52:49.84

kitedart

Oh gosh like oh so yeah, yeah, I'm like okay that one next time note to self. Although now some of it like once I figured it out was super easy but getting there was not so but um I I do just think that.


53:09.78

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, yes.


53:27.94

kitedart

It's ah being a business owner has been one of the most transformative things for me personally around identity and as a brown woman you know for me I mean there's There's certainly the race but the.


53:42.74

Dr_ G

Have.


54:05.64

Dr_ G

Right? Yeah huge huge.


54:05.78

kitedart

The whole being a woman Huge right? Like we're not supposed to be here. People aren't supposed to want to pay us gobs of money for our thoughts for what we know So it's.


54:24.76

Dr_ G

Yes, yeah, yeah.


54:39.52

kitedart

It's been a lot and um and and the community right? like I mean and even it's so it's so interesting. This is one thing I'd love to call out is that it I think community and connection to other people who are trying to do it in this way is really important like you said and for me, it's.


55:07.74

Dr_ G

Um, yeah.


55:16.17

kitedart

It's even a big part of the reason I do this work was is that by having clients like you. It's so it gives me so much like it gives me access to it for myself as well like in supporting you and then as I get it.


55:18.46

Dr_ G

Totally.


55:40.92

Dr_ G

Yeah.


55:53.62

Dr_ G

Um, yeah.


55:55.12

kitedart

My clients get it and I just love this logistic nature of of this work and being connected to people who are doing doing work in a more humanized way doing business in a more humanized way.


56:16.36

Dr_ G

Yeah, yeah, yeah, you you bring up something that's super important for me which is being a woman and I think that it's really difficult when it comes to seeking out that community like we just talked about because. You know so much of what women do is pathologized just in general. Always right? So So now speaking speaking It's so true if you like somebody who's older than you you have daddy issues like it's just what is happening right.


56:59.70

kitedart

I Love that wording. Ah yes.


57:16.86

kitedart

What.


57:23.80

Dr_ G

So again though, like if I want to seek out community where I'm building a business as a woman that gets pathologized as oh I might not I must not be clear with my id I might not I must not be you know I must not have it all together. The fact that I'm needing so much community around here I might I must not be able to make decisions right.


57:57.00

kitedart

Rather.


58:02.62

Dr_ G

So it's pathologized to like reach out and want that community and then you know as a brown woman coming in and saying like for for me, empathy needs to be in tech that's pathologizing it gets pathologized again of like of course a woman wants to make tech touchy Philly but that's not what it is. It's Zeros and wants and it's like no you know so.


58:30.42

kitedart

Yeah.


58:40.98

Dr_ G

So Having to constantly fight the stigma of pathology as a woman. It is a whole different. You know thing that I don't even know if there's enough coursework out there to like get at what is actually happening right? so. Um, yeah, cheers to the fall of patriarchy but we got a long way to go? yeah.


59:22.80

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, okay so that's like my favorite quote of like the month is pathologizing we women and yeah, ah so that's so that's such an accurate representation.


59:42.42

Dr_ G

Ah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.


59:57.66

kitedart

Of what is happening there and and I think that it this that kind of to me also relates back to what you said about um about the the whole idea of Market research and like you don't want to spend all of this time looking at your competitors and yeah me too like I I mean sometimes I do but it's.


01:00:18.30

Dr_ G

Um, yeah.


01:00:31.18

Dr_ G

Totally.


01:00:37.78

kitedart

It's I'm not building the business to be reactive to them or to copy them and so I feel like in in this idea that you're sharing about women. It's like.


01:00:47.85

Dr_ G

That's it right.


01:01:12.72

kitedart

We we just have to do it. We have to create it right? like it's It's not about explaining it. It's not about trying to go back and prove to me Anyway, it's It's just like I'm doing something different and.


01:01:15.26

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, and.


01:01:35.80

Dr_ G

Um, ah.


01:01:42.22

kitedart

People who get it get it and the people who don't get it I'm just gonna keep calling it out and they may never get it. Oh well, It's not stopping me I'm gonna keep going and I mean it's just like you know one thing that I feel like I help a lot of my clients with is.


01:01:51.96

Dr_ G

Get right? right? right.


01:02:15.62

kitedart

How to bring back in like their intuition to business right? like just like tech is supposed to be you know ones and Zeros not empathy. Business is supposed to be bottom line logical rational and I'm like listen to that intuition because.


01:02:18.80

Dr_ G

Yeah, so.


01:02:38.64

Dr_ G

Right? yep.


01:02:51.46

kitedart

Not going to lead you astray most of the time. So.


01:02:52.80

Dr_ G

Yeah, that was a huge lesson that I learned working with you because I did keep getting steered for Facebook I did keep getting steered for Instagram continue to do it. This is where you're going to get the most people and blah blah blah blah blah and my intuition I just was like I don't think it's. Good like I don't think this is gonna be fun for me I don't even want the app on my phone like it just I don't know and I kept saying no no, no and finally the universe was like ok fine and it stopped circling around so I'm no longer being you know, kind of asked and. Non consensually marketed about you know, starting Facebook page and starting an Instagram Page so I feel like there does come a point in time where the universe does challenge you in what it's like to trust your intuition and so if you trust it 1 time and it comes back around Trust it again and it's going to come back and you just have to keep trusting it.


01:04:22.98

kitedart

Yeah.


01:04:43.80

Dr_ G

Until the universe is finally like ok, good job right? and then it just stops presenting you with the thing but it will present you with something else that you don't trust So It's just a constant process. It's like once you learn to do a pull up. You don't just stop doing pullups and then go to the gym and expect to be able to do a pull up like Nope That's not how it Happens. You got to learn to do the pullup and then you got to practice a pull up and continue to do the pullup if you want to be able to do a pull up. It's the same thing with intuition but I never would have been able to hear that if it didn't come from somebody who looked like me so that was huge. So Thank you? Yeah yeah.


01:05:43.30

kitedart

Ah, yeah, yeah, you're welcome. It's I am I mean I I had to learn it too I mean I've had these places in life where intuition I trusted it in this kind of big way. But for day to day business decisions I didn't trust it because you know.


01:06:12.52

Dr_ G

Right? right.


01:06:23.00

kitedart

Partly brown-skinned woman patriarchy I mean there's so many reasons but also just the culture of business is logical and about the numbers and yeah, the numbers matter like yeah I I like to have a bunch of money in my bank account. Um, and there's there's more to it than that.


01:06:28.12

Dr_ G

So much.


01:06:43.94

Dr_ G

Um, absolutely absolutely you know? Yep yeah.


01:07:01.38

kitedart

So um, so True. Um, so I'm thinking we've been talking a lot about how like identity and that kind of stuff plays into business I'd love to ask if you'd be willing to just share. Maybe you know. A couple few of like what what have been some of the biggest challenges maybe outside of that of starting and running a business and then we'll move into a coaching conversation after that.


01:07:57.22

Dr_ G

Yeah, So I think you know as the business has been going along and things are starting to happen. It's like now this question of like do I scale or do I not scale right? Do I do I Hire another me essentially and try to do more work. The other question that I think is really. Trying to figure out is how much money do I feel comfortable with saying like okay I don't need to take on another contract right? like at what point do I feel like I can stop worrying not necessarily worrying but at what point do I feel like I can pause on the pipeline and start doing some other work and I think the biggest. Question which I think I want my coaching to be around is this idea of going from an operator to an owner and I know that there's like the business stuff of like having a certain amount of revenue and a certain amount of you know things like that happening I get that part but there's also a mental shift.


01:09:28.80

kitedart

Ah.


01:09:53.16

Dr_ G

That I I really think I want to start preparing myself for of like leaving the the work to have 6 to eight months of you know, being with my kids and only being with my kids or something right? or what that looks like what that. Feels like in my body I think is something I really want to understand because I'm just not quite there yet. But I know I to start planning for it right? yeah.


01:10:30.16

kitedart

Um, yeah, yeah to the that's a juicy one. So. It's interesting because they're different conversations in some ways. But I also think that there's some overlap in terms of this scaling question and the moon moving from an operator to an owner and I they're not the same but they can be related and I think 1 thing that's that i'd.


01:11:11.48

Dr_ G

Um, yeah. Um, yeah.


01:11:42.54

kitedart

Oh can I Also just call out that I love that you're thinking about this already right? Even though you're like okay I'm not quite there yet. But I think it's so important because um, when we when we Bur the when we birth the business right? like it's like we. It's our baby like we want to hang on tight and it's really.


01:11:53.84

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, good news.


01:12:19.20

kitedart

I'm not trying to um to like call you out for it specifically. But I I think for myself and for a lot of people a lot of my clients. It can be really hard to to be able to let go right? and we want to. We want to hold on tight. We want to keep control of it. So um.


01:12:42.88

Dr_ G

Right? yeah.


01:12:57.66

kitedart

So I think a couple things is this like like I think one of the really important questions to think about here in terms of scaling and this idea of moving moving into more of an ownership role is to just really think about like what you really want out of life like what? um.


01:13:19.26

Dr_ G

Um, are you.


01:13:35.64

kitedart

What is success to you? What do you want? What are those source commitments. What are those things that you're committed to seeing in the world. Um, that that may not exist now and and this is one thing where I think it's important to think Beyond values because.


01:13:46.22

Dr_ G

Um.


01:14:07.66

kitedart

I Love values work I think it's really important but I do think this conversation around source commitments goes deeper and is more about creation of creating the world that we want and so I think a lot of the answers. Still come back to that foundational. What are the source commitments.


01:14:15.34

Dr_ G

Yeah, ah.


01:14:41.72

Dr_ G

Um, okay I.


01:14:47.60

kitedart

And then what feels like success to you So that's kind of the first part of it and and there's more but like what does that bring up for you.


01:15:08.20

Dr_ G

So I feel like the the so my source commitments are empowerment healing and freedom and so one of the things that needs to be in place in order for me to feel like I can walk away is that. Um, the firm has now acquired talent from um, uprising countries. so so I don't my firm is not going to be having the top talent in the United States you can access you you know young talent from up from up and coming countries. So you're giving life. And empowering them to have a career in ux in ui so I feel like that needs to be in place in order for me to be like ok I can walk away now if that's not in place I still feel like I need to be like part of the day to day operations and making sure that that's there and I think the other part. Um I don't know yet I don't I don't know. Yeah I'm only really sure about like the source commitment part of like what I know really needs to be there in my business and order me for me to feel comfortable to walk away. Yeah, um.


01:17:21.22

kitedart

Yeah, and I think that in some senses I think that I know for you that that these ah the the topic of scaling and ownership owning.


01:17:51.16

Dr_ G

And.


01:18:00.54

kitedart

Business um are different and I think that they could be tied together in some so some ways in terms of how you choose to scale now. Well.


01:18:13.84

Dr_ G

For sure.


01:18:25.78

Dr_ G

Right? there it is. Yeah yep yep.


01:18:31.22

kitedart

Impact your ability to walk away later or to if you know even if it's just you know oh I'm I'm going on a trip for two months or whatever. So and and I still think so I love what you said about empowerment right? So then ah then it becomes about okay the scaling strategy.


01:19:05.14

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, right.


01:19:11.20

kitedart

Is about training that talent and how do you because what you have is so valuable and to your point. It's not what everybody else out. There's doing right? and so you've got something really unique and special and I know Education's important to you right? And so how and.


01:19:28.34

Dr_ G

A hair a hair. Absolutely.


01:19:51.88

kitedart

Empowerment of youth and like there's so many different pieces. So I think this then becomes about how do you train the people to approach Ux with empathy and.


01:20:04.84

Dr_ G

Ah.


01:20:22.20

kitedart

Once you've done that then you've created the operators so that you can then move into ownership.


01:20:31.20

Dr_ G

Perfect. This is so perfect because one of the things that I was moving into was creating an accelerator for empathy and ux so that people could come in do like an eight-week course about empathy in Ux and again this idea of training creating more. Mes essentially and how do I do that and so I am very pleased to hear that it's in line with what you just talked about in strategy because um I have been thinking about how to scale now and and and creating a strategy around scaling in a way that impacts like you just said. I could scale tomorrow right? and just hire a bunch of stuff and get get a bunch of contracts and boom boom boom but it's not going to serve me as an owner in 3 to 5 years I'll still be operating the minutiae of stuff and so I really appreciate and I hope that everybody hears that you you can strategize for.


01:21:49.50

kitedart

Right.


01:22:26.60

Dr_ G

The future but doing the implement implementing the stuff now right? and so that was really big for me. Thank you? yeah.


01:22:36.90

kitedart

Um, yeah, and. I I Just think that um sorry I'm I'm there was I had a thought and I as you were talking and then I was listening still. So Oh yeah, go ahead? yeah.


01:23:01.10

Dr_ G

Post. I Have a question if it doesn't jibe your thought So when when we're talking about scaling right? It's kind of a chicken or ache thing which I totally understand. But.


01:23:25.54

kitedart

Go ahead.


01:23:43.72

Dr_ G

If there are like some like you need to have you know a percentage amount of money in order to pay this person like what are some like actual like things that I can kind of like benchmarks or goals that I can set for myself in order to know like okay financially I am in a place where I can scale right? because I.


01:24:16.32

kitedart

Ah.


01:24:20.84

Dr_ G

I Feel like those are a little bit different things sometimes they can be. But yeah.


01:24:25.82

kitedart

Yeah, so that's a good question and I think so to your point right? Um, scale scale First of all scaling can look like a lot of things right? So scaling can look like I'm hiring employees.


01:24:51.28

Dr_ G

Um, right? um.


01:25:04.30

kitedart

Scaling can look like I'm outsourcing certain things scaling can look like I'm just you know hiring the pieces that I don't want to do or referring or whatever. So I think part of it has to I think the number one answer to your question is workability and so.


01:25:22.52

Dr_ G

Came.


01:25:35.50

Dr_ G

Totally.


01:25:42.00

kitedart

Works for your life and how is it in alignment with where you are now and where you want to go so again that it gets it does get back to that ownership thing. So for example, um, there there isn't a harden. It's I don't feel like there's a hard and fast number I think.


01:25:55.40

Dr_ G

Her.


01:26:13.10

Dr_ G

Um, yeah.


01:26:19.20

kitedart

It has to come from inside you and what works for you I do think that quite oftentimes scaling can be this sort of uncomfortable messy place to be that sometimes you have to be willing to give up.


01:26:41.24

Dr_ G

Yeah.


01:26:58.30

kitedart

Some of the money that we're pulling from the business in order to do it and it's It's not like okay I'm hiring this out and now that instantly has me able to make more right. There can be It can just be a little wonky in terms of like um.


01:27:19.20

Dr_ G

Sure. Ah.


01:27:36.64

kitedart

Being willing to give up some of that revenue or the profits. So I think I think from that it has to be like what's workable for you and also leaning and and knowing it's a business and it takes money to make money and we have to be willing to like let some of that go out.


01:27:40.62

Dr_ G

Yeah, yeah. Are. Yeah, so make sense.


01:28:16.10

kitedart

But in in the long run will get more back in. Um I think that the other part of that is is kind of like. What that vision is for for being the owner later. So if you want to be you know if you want Dr G's lab to be a business that has employees that has you know x amount of revenue coming in a year


01:28:57.60

Dr_ G

But.


01:29:22.14

kitedart

Like Dada Dada da right? Then it's like okay how how do you start building that in ah in a way that works for you if you want it to be like part of what I'm thinking about is that like you can be training people in.


01:29:27.56

Dr_ G

Ah.


01:30:00.66

kitedart

How to do ux with empathy and then from there when you're ready. You can be pulling those folks back in and having them then lead the the coursework and the learning for others and it may necessarily mean that you have to hire employees.


01:30:02.94

Dr_ G

So.


01:30:15.32

Dr_ G

Yeah. Right? yes.


01:30:38.14

kitedart

It could be that you hire them as a contractor to come in and lead part of that work I mean so there's just a lot of different ways. It can go and I think sometimes the getting a little more creative with how we do it? um.


01:30:39.58

Dr_ G

Um, and and.


01:31:12.72

kitedart

Makes it feel more accessible than just hiring employees from that dollars and cents standpoint


01:31:13.48

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, yeah, yeah I Love what you just said because it actually gave me a time frame now to work with because I do want to to empower. And I do want to actually have folks who have taken the course come back and and teach the course and and kind of keep that family kind of keep it in the family type of of mentality and then it empowers them right? because they've taken the course and now they're teaching the course and they can now hang that on you know, hang their hat on that too and.


01:32:06.28

kitedart

Yeah.


01:32:31.10

Dr_ G

What it did for me was oh that it gave me a place to look for when I will be wanting to scale I'm not going to be able to scale for me until I've taught a course at least and I've got folks who are interested in coming back to do another course. Which means I need to have an audience that's willing you know another audience that's ready to take that course so that just gave me a couple of things to look for in terms of you know, making sure I have the audience making sure I've got the folks who are willing to take the course and then come back to teach the course so that took my mind off of the dollar Amount. And the ah you know that's so-called traditional ways of learning thinking about when to scale and it brought me back into my body and what the things that I want to see and feel before I'm ready to Scale. So I Love that.. Thanks.


01:34:06.72

kitedart

Cool, yeah well and as you were talking that also has me thinking Bree just about um as you're doing it too right? like because of ah so p r t s right? Our strengths and passions and. And our real abilities right? that if you've got these people coming to take this course you may have 20 people in the course there may only be 2 people out of that group of people who has the right passion and talent to go on and lead it again. Um, Kite + Dart.


01:34:57.24

Dr_ G

Um, yeah, right? exactly.


01:35:19.14

kitedart

I came in as a client I stuck around I Love leading this work right? like did you not know that. Okay oh I So I came as a client.


01:35:24.64

Dr_ G

Um, that's funny. That's amazing I Love that no and I love it. So awesome.


01:35:50.42

kitedart

And it was like and part of it was Nate and I were always talking about like education and stuff and that's how the coursework got expanded from where it started and and you know and so it's kind of cool because it's almost I don't know it's like this. It's just.


01:35:55.42

Dr_ G

Yeah.


01:36:28.64

kitedart

It just feels more creative and allows you to match what people do more closely to who they are right? You started your business from this inside out place and if you're gonna scale and I'm not gonna say people who have here's a job description.


01:36:46.10

Dr_ G

It's totally right.


01:37:04.22

kitedart

Let's go find the closest we can to match it I'm not going to say that that's a terrible thing to do. It's practical but you can also be more creative and be doing the work that you're doing and then looking to empower folks and you may have other folks who would like to contribute back.


01:37:11.82

Dr_ G

2


01:37:40.94

kitedart

In some completely different way that you haven't even thought about that comes up through your interaction with them and that just leaves a lot more room for possibility for creating it as you go back to flying the plane while you're building it right here we are again. But but.


01:37:42.24

Dr_ G

Um, right? I Love it. Yeah, yeah, you're we are again? Yep Absolutely yeah, that's so perfect though I I Love the the freedom to be relational in all things is really is really key to to keep in mind. So yeah.


01:38:35.96

kitedart

Yeah, yeah, cool. So I hope that was helpful. Um I would love to wrap up I did not warn you about this. But so I always I Always forget that I don't like tell people about this but um I would love to ask.


01:38:43.70

Dr_ G

Super helpful.


01:39:04.24

Dr_ G

Um, okay.


01:39:14.32

kitedart

You What does entrepreneurial activism mean to you just a quick answer I don't need a long dissertation.


01:39:26.10

Dr_ G

Um, entrepreneurial Activism I Think it's really about standing up for what you believe in and making money out of it Somehow that's. The magic of it is you stand up for what you believe in and you just so happen to make a living off of it. Yeah, nice like.


01:40:12.80

kitedart

Cool, Nice and simple. Love that Yes, um I forget to tell people that but you know at Kite + Dart. We're just all about entrepreneurial activism and and it's I believe that we can make money while we're changing the world. So um, all right.


01:40:40.64

Dr_ G

Yeah, totally I Love that.


01:40:51.46

kitedart

Very last question can you share how people can get in touch with you if they would like to learn more about Dr G's lab.


01:40:57.94

Dr_ G

Yeah I am on Linkedin. You can find me Dr. G um, and then my web website Dr G's http://lab.com ah, since I haven't touched it in over years since I made it but really it does give you. And insight into what trauma informed Ux research looks like what the process looks like um and you can also sign up for my four point Friday email that comes out on Mondays Tuesdays Wednesdays sometimes Fridays um. And yeah, you know I think I'm super. My inbox is an open inbox I like to say so I'm not one of those founders where you're goingnna get a robot you'll get me. Um, so yeah, brie at Dr Gslab Dot Com open inbox.


01:42:28.44

kitedart

Great Bree! Thank you so much for being here I always always love talking with you every single second it happens and I will.


01:42:41.74

Dr_ G

Scream same.


01:42:57.36

kitedart

Look forward to whatever future like just directions that Dr G's lab goes because I know it's gonna be incredible.


01:43:05.60

Dr_ G

Um, yes, awesome. Thank you for having me so good to see you.